Here is my personal wishlist of changes that you may or may not agree with:
1. Smokehouse workers increased to 2 – I’m not sure if the firewood efficiency is better in the smokehouse compared to the smoking shed, but the size to yield ratio feels bad when i’m deciding which one to build. This change would make me feel better to dedicate more space for the smokehouse.
2. More variations of buildings with only 1 model – Specifically the izba. While i like building the izba, the fact that every izba looks the same makes me want to use log cabins or red cottages more.
3. Brickyard workers increased to 2 – This would help to speed up production of bricks and roof tiles without having to build another large brickyard. If the glass factory can have more workers why can’t the brickyard?
4. Village hall to function more like the thingstead – for some reason, the UI on the village hall looks much worse than the thingstead. Instead of having everything laid out cleanly, the village hall seems more squashed. For this reason, i don’t even bother building a village hall.
5. Consistency and clarity – Right now i’m still not sure what all the crafted items and forged items are, and i can’t seem to figure it out from the wiki either. It doesn’t help that there’s a lot of labels that say ‘utensils’ which i’m guessing is the same thing as ‘crafted items’. The wiki seems to be missing the workshop entry.
6. Alcohol – It seems that when i have a tavern and i want the innkeeper to supply alcohol from outside, it will only do so if the alcohol limit isn’t passed. This means that if it’s possible that even though i have a maxed out alcohol supply, the tavern will remain completely empty. This means i have to micromanage the alcohol limit in order to supply alcohol to a tavern.
7. Peat system – Personally, i think the peat system is extremely tedious. The amount of peat there is on the map forces me to click hundreds of times on tiles that are hard to see to be able to farm peat. After trying it once, i’ve decided it’s just not worth the time and effort to farm and instead just reclaim the land every time, even though i like the added peat resource.
8. Gold/Silver and Money into one resource – I don’t see the need to track these separately and due to daler and pennings being one resource i have to check my stock data anyways. Having these as one resource gives an extra resource flag that can be used for something more important as i found that the resource flags were worse in 7.0 coming from 6.0.
9. Mod integration – I really enjoy other mods on top of the North, especially discrepancy’s mods such as townhouses and jetty, as it adds on to the era progression. Multiple story townhouses are great as they take up less space, look great in a city, provides more space for town services and just make sense. I don’t know if you plan on making some of your own, but the point i’m trying to make is it’s hard for me to ever use these mods without ruining the balance of the game. These powerful buildings don’t require bricks or glass, and are too cheap compared to the balance you’ve put in place for your buildings. There are some wonderful models such as DS Market Harborough Old Grammar School that add variation to the single modelled buildings in the North that i cannot use due to balance.
10. Crayfishing – I never use the crayfishing action as it seems like a tedious task and i don’t quite understand it. If you place it and harvest all these is to be harvested, do i need to replace it or do crayfish automatically refill? I don’t think this is the case seeing how the game works, so i prefer if there was a building like the fishing dock dedicated to crayfish farming. Perhaps something like a crayfish trapper.
11. Brick version of the workshop – The exclusivity of some products in the workshop means that you can really only build it next to a log cabin if you want it to match, even though you may upgrade all your log cabins to red cottages. Either a brick version of the workshop or another building being able to produce these exclusive products would be ideal.
12. Increased area of the well – The small area of the well makes it tedious to build around if you want the maximum effect of the well. It makes it more restrictive in making your villages look nice if you have to place one in every corner. Especially in games where disasters are turned off, it would be nice if the range was larger so you wouldn’t have to worry about it too much.
13. Salt and sugar production – These productions could be very low yield for balancing reasons, but it would be nice to have them regardless. I guess salt would make sense from seawater, while sugar on the other hand would need farming of sugarcane.
Thanks for all your hard work and i’m looking forward to what you think and where the mod is going from here!
Thank you for all your ideas, that’s always welcome! I will go through your points and also do some notes for next updates:
1) The smokehouse works 25% faster than the small shed to simulate how more can be smoked in the same time. Firewood efficiency is not different (1 per turn). So it’s basically a decision of required area vs time. Not sure yet about more workers in the house. But I don’t think it would be a balancing issue to increase it.
2) Yes, more variants of houses are always nice. More izbas I have on the list and pictures I have too. It just was not higher in priority than other models.
3) The idea was to connect production speed on the furnace, not on the workers in brickyards while it’s more a manual work at up to 4 workplaces (chimneys) in the glass factory. Of course it would be reasonable if a second brickmaker helps to prepare clay and to carry stuff. Will think about this.
4) The difference in the village hall is actually only the list of production categories which is complete here but limited to early game resources in the thingstead. Maybe you have another mod on top that changes the UI? Apart from this, I also see the problem that there is not enough reason to build a hall and most people probably just stick with the thingstead. My thought some time ago was to remove the statistic tab there because to keep record of town developing is actually something later in history. I did not yet because I have doubts people really like this idea.
5) You mean not clear in game or only in wiki? Basically, pottery plus occasionally used items like ropes and barrows are collected in “Utensils” while fittings plus occasionally used traps and anvils are under “Ironware”. This way we have pottery and fittings as quite important building requirements counted separately in overview window. That’s the idea. The resource flagging is tricky because very limited, even with the custom ones we got some time ago. And it still can be improved in the mod. To put all those into one “Items” category is also an option and would free a flag.
6) That’s right and an issue. The problem ist that bringing alcohol from outside has to follow a limit. If I don’t define one, the game falls back to wood limit. It would need to be fixed in core game. Or by using another limit that is unused or never reached, but at the moment I don’t have a free flag.
7) Right, it’s kind of tedious to place cutting spots separately. I would make it possible to define a whole area at the same time, but it does’t work with the modkit. The only other way is to make peat cutting just like collecting firewood. I tried this but was not convincing and I kept it as the reclaim land option. In combination, it adds some new decisions to make on a map with bog areas which are not just fast to harvest fuel spots but something that limits land use and has different ways to deal with. If not on an Iceland map, it’s no problem to ignore peat cutting since there is enough wood.
8) Coins and precious metal will go into one resource category (probably called currencies) in a next update. It’s not necessary anymore to split them since my merchants bring certain resources, not whole categories. The free flag will then probably be used for timber but that’s not sure yet.
9) Basically it’s possible to overwrite building requirements of other mods. I did it only in a few cases yet, like the stone bridge which I also integrated in the wiki here. The problem is that it makes the mod more complex with a lot of additional files to maintain and to load and also some modders and players might not like this. So I rather focused on overwrites that are really necessary to make other mods work. Maybe to fully integrate some more mods that really match the North. Can you make a wish list of such mods? I don’t even know this school you mentioned.
10) Crayfishing indeed works as you write and doesn’t fill up automatically. It’s meant as a different way to fish in early game, not continuously but for a randomized amount in short time. It even corresponds to real life, where it’s also done seasonal. A permanent crayfish object can be nice though.
11) Agree, the workshop options are too exclusive for log cabins. It needs more production buildings for late game that replace them.
12) I noticed this too and in my current dev version, the radius of wells is increased from 10 to 12. That’s much better.
13) Salt from seawater makes sense, right. I think it even has a tradition in Norway. What you can add is the EBSaltWorks to be found on WorldofBanished. It’s adapted if you place it below the North and works well. Sugarcane would not grow in Nordic climate and I like to keep some resources that are only imports. It keeps trading interesting.
That’s so far from me. Maybe others also have ideas to these points. :)
Hi Tom, thanks for responding.
1. I like to think the smokehouse is big enough to fit 2 workers. I think it would really help differentiate it from the shed with the smokehouse being a dedicated building for cooking while the shed is a fast and easy way for a single worker to cook and also being convenient to place in the cracks of the city.
4. Yes I believe another mod was altering the UI so it’s all good now. I think the absence of statistics works as the data is more useful once you’ve progressed to the stage you can build a village hall. Another possible incentive might be a happiness buff for the village hall? If this is too powerful, maybe have the village hall build from bricks too to have it even later in the game.
6. I assume this is the same way it worked in vanilla so there’s no easy way around it. I guess i have to either micromanage it or set the ale limit high and have traders automatically export it to keep a constant state of production.
7. Is it possible to have a quick to build building for peat cutters that defines an area to farm peat? Like a woodcutters cabin but for peat. I would think this is a better solution that keeps the profession intact.
9. By integration I only meant the integration of building requirements, not the mods themselves like MegaMod. If possible the mods would be kept separate, but maybe a small patch overwrites all the building requirements of the addon mod that balances it with the North. This way everything is optional and nobody gets upset. Here is a list of mods i would use alongside the North if balanced to add variety and progression:
– DS Jetty and Bridge
– DS Stone Bridge (stone version of jetty and bridge)
– DS Town Houses
– DS Market Harborough Old Grammar School
10. An idea would be have the crayfishing building act like a crop field in that it only is worked during certain seasons but I’m not sure if that’s possible. If not, a low yield would make sense, turning it into more of a delicacy that adds variety to the food production without undermining its presence in trade. It would be more of a low priority food production that’d be nice to have when you’ve already made all the other food productions.
For a next update I increased max workers in smokehouse and brickyard to 2.
The reports tab in Thingstead I’ve removed. Let’s see how people find that.
This limit issue in taverns I keep in mind for improving the resource flags. Same issue I have with other buildings such as temple, glass storage, clay spot and everything with an empty storage option. So I would really like to solve it. Just have to sacrifice a flag for it.
A “woodcutter cabin” object for peat would be basically again like collecting firewood and I can’t even increase worktime required for picking up a resource. My idea goes rather in a direction like reducing boglands to smaller spots on forested maps.
By integration I mean the same as you, not including the models but files to overwrite some of their properties. A separate patch mod for this is actually a nice idea because fully optional then.
The cropfield mechanic would not help for crayfishing. But your idea of making it somehow seasonal in summer is nice. It would be possible if we could re-spawn natural resources things in water.
Good comments, Pleaky. I agree with much of it but have a different opinion in some:
2 workers in smokehouse and brickyard, good. (I actually thought the brickyard had more workers, didn’t it in an earlier version?)
More variation of izbas is also good. For some reason (maybe because there’s only one) I only use them out in the woods or in a pasture area. Usually never in villages.
I don’t like that you will take away the reports at the Thingstead, Tom. I need statistics right at the beginning. It’s necessary in the more difficult starting options. I also think that it should be possible to build a large settlement and stay in “old times” and have all the necessary options to manage it. Personally, I don’t need any other incitement to build the red townhall when I advance into “modern times” than its beauty. But something extra, compared to the thingstead, like happiness is also something to think about. Maybe a safety aspect? To replace all the wells in a more advanced settlement? Or spiritual? Didn’t the communists in Eastern Europe replace the faith in God with the faith in the State?😉
Flagging is tricky and we have discussed it a lot in the past. I find it works now, not perfect but as good as it can work. Of course, it gets more complicated if we add more mods. Just one point of view, don’t make changes too often. It takes time to get used to it, to where a product belongs. I like to have control of all kinds of production and I like to have this as simple and easy as possible. So I’ve learned where to look, on the menu or at the inventory or both to make this work.
Taverns and temple aren’t perfect but they do work, we just need to find a strategy how. If we are in a good mood, we can even see it positive; something to solve that adds a spice to the game.
I like the peat cutting the way it is. I like that it’s a different “mechanic” than deadwood. Peat is an obstacle but also a resource, especially on a Seafarer map. But I agree that the spots could be large but rare on a forest map. I’m a micromanagement kind of person, so I don’t really mind the tedious marking, even if it would have been nicer to be able to mark a whole area. I also use crayfishing, even sometimes in a medium-size game. A permanent crayfisher would also be nice but there’s also something good in various methods here. And crayfishing really “save the day” if you get the crazy idea to try Ironman on a Seafarer map on “harsh”.
Since we can’t mine gold anymore, it makes no sense to have different flags for gold and coins. I guess it’s a remain from the “goldmining” version of the North.
Agree with workshops for late game. I use to put the workshops on all kinds of buildings with a grassroof, like storages, inns…when I’ve upgraded to the red houses.
I like to see the increased radius of the wells. I’m not sure but I think you still have a stone well and maybe it still needs rope to be built. Couldn’t the radius of it be even bigger? A more efficient well, that could support more people with water after you’ve bought the nessesary rope?
By the way, I will start a new Nordic game, maybe even tonight. There’s some testing of the autotrade in a larger settlemet that I wanted to do for a long time. I’ll let you know how it works.
How people feel about changes vary based on their playstyle. While you are a micromanagement kind of person Nilla, i’m more of a macromanagement type when playing Banished. This is why i’m a fan of more automation like a crayfish building and more workers in buildings so i don’t have to worry about it as much. It is also why i have more of a problem with the tavern issue than you do, as i’d rather set it and leave it instead of always having to play around it.
To best play with macromanagement, i exclusively play with large map settings with mild weather and disasters off. I almost always play on lake which is the best setting for DS Jetty and Bridge. This is why i do not like the peat system, as on a large map setting, there is just too many peat squares to click. It would be nice to increase the size of peat on the ground to a 2×2 square to make it easier, but i don’t think that’s possible. I think in a situation like this, more spread out and larger peat biomes would be good, instead of constantly being in the way.
Due to my playstyle, i don’t have a problem with the limitations placed on the thingstead. Nilla on the other hand has a much harder time with this change, as it seems that they play on more resource-scarce settings. I still think a simple happiness buff for the village hall is more than enough incentive to build it.
I don’t agree that more mods would be a problem for flagging. The mods would only potentially introduce one additional resource: timber, which Tom has said he was already considering. Even if you didn’t want to add timber, you could just overwrite the resources needed for the mods to be wood instead of timber, eliminating it from the resource flag contention.
I use this mod over other mod overhauls because i like the beginning, setting, aesthetic, systems and challenges of the North. The only thing big missing for me is the end-game, where progression halts. It is only logical to me for the bannies to advance into multiple story houses and take advantage of the water when free space becomes more scarce. By integrating mods, Tom doesn’t even have to invent a new end-game and can still focus on the early/mid-game buildings. In my personal taste, it would be the perfect combo to integrate the North’s challenges with the other mods i’ve mentioned. If those were more highly priced, it would be a real end-game goal that would be a big project for the bannies to undergo once they’ve solved their other challenges.
On a separate note, are you happy with sand at the moment? I think the sand pit is extremely strong as not only can you find gold in it, but it’s infinite. For the past few patches i’ve used sand as my main trade resource. I’m not complaining as i’m abusing it the most, but i think a nerf from 3-4 value to 2-3 would be fair.
It’s nice to discuss things with someone with ideas and a different approach to the game than I have. Discuss things is principally only interesting if you have a different point of view.
I understand your points when it comes to letting things run automatically, Pleaky. Now, crayfishing isn’t a problem. There are plenty of other protein sources that run automatically so you can just leave it to us “micromanager”. (I can confess, I don’t use it in all games either). The taverns are another matter, you can’t just leave them if you want to make your population happy. I usually get around these limit problems by serving meals instead of alcohol. In most Nordic games I have more proteins than I need anyway. That might not be perfect either, some vendors “steal” some of it to make business with serving roasted meat as fast food, but usually, that doesn’t hurt much.
With the peat resource, I think we both agree. I find it very good that you can choose to use the peat or just clear the bogland away, easy and automatically. I don’t use every square of peat. Even on a map with limited resources, I sometimes want it gone fast. So I fully agree, big pieces of bog that you can clear away in a planned and fast way, is much better than these small odd tiles that you don’t notice before you want to build on them.
Yes, I like the surviving aspects of Banished the most. One of the reasons I like the North mod so much. It really has hard options. It’s almost like a different game. I do enjoy a mild farming game, too. It’s a good thing when both things work. And yes, with spare resources you are more dependant on early statistics. I usually look a lot on graphs and production numbers in the townhall menus when I play these “surviving games”. That’s why I don’t like statistics taken away from the thingstead. I don’t want to go back to Kid’s tiny townhall, that I used to build earlier in the North before there was an early townhall function.
I didn’t primarily mean the flagging as a tool for modding when I claimed that it gets more complicated with additional mods. I know too little about modding to talk about that. I meant that it gets more complicated to use the categories as a player. Say, you add a mod that has a copper resource. The metal and ore category is tricky enough to use as it contains iron ore, iron bloom and iron. If you add copper ore and copper metal, I would say it makes no sense at all to look at the menu.
Endgame in Banished is a tricky thing because there are no real goals. You need to set them for yourself and yes, your goal is a good one that should be possible and make sense. But are the DS buildings really that cheap? I have used all these mods, not always together with the North but I never had that impression that the buildings were cheap to build. On the contrary, I remember that I found the lovely Bryggen houses from the Townhouse mod rather expensive since they needed a lot of expensive iron. But that was an earlier version and there might have been some changes. And I basically agree, advanced buildings should be expensive.
I was surprised when I read that you find the sandpit too strong. I have never had that impression but I’ve really never had checked it. Normally, I’m a person who wants control, so when I first use a building or construction, I check its economy but I have learned over the years that Tom is very good at finding balance in his mods, the numbers use to make sense, so I don’t always check the economy of his sites. So I needed to take a look at the sandpit in my new game. One worker produced around 150 sand each year, that’s a profit of 600. Not much in a Nordic game where you can say that each Banni needs 25 proteins x2, 25 vegetables x3, 25 grain x4 and 25 fruit x5 = 350 each year to eat and fuel, tools and clothes worth around another 100. He can’t even support one child not to speak about the traders, vendors, priests, laborers and other not directly producing persons. My Bannis still have 3 hearts so I guess that you can push the production higher with a happy miner, and together with occasional gold findings, the profit makes sense but I still don’t find sand profitable enough to produce for export. I think Tom has set the trade value to 4 because he wants to improve the “vanilla” raw material values, where the profit of producing raw materials are so bad that people usually import them.
I started a new game yesterday with some specific goals but this is long enough end I will not hi-jack your thread Pleaky, so I’ll write about it another time on another place.
I can understand if making a building for crayfishing is not planned. Personally i would like to see it even in the form of an optional add-on, as i enjoy the crayfish resource.
Your workaround for the tavern would definitely work as i put an unlimited cap on my food resource, but then what’s even the point of ale as a resource if not to serve at a tavern? It’s not like they’re a very valuable trade good.
I agree that mods that add new resources that complicate the resource flagging would be too complicated. That would not be the case with DS mods however, so it is not a problem in my proposal.
Regarding the DS townhouses, the large (6 person) variation of the cheapest townhouse (stone) has the resource requirements: 72 stone, 48 timber, 34 fittings and 3 logs. Compared to the red cottage, this has less space taken, and fits more people yet doesn’t feel more expensive than the red cottage. This townhouse should include glass and roof tiles. The 2nd type (Bryggen) are more expensive, but again doesn’t need roof tiles and should have much more glass needed as it clearly has more windows than a red cottage despite needing less than one. The last and most expensive type (brick town house) uses copper roofing and lime, which are not obtainable unless you add on another mod so these aren’t even usable, despite being the most fleshed out aspect of the mod. Apart from the resources required, how do the warmth rating, build time required and happiness balance out with the North’s houses?
I can agree about the alcohol. What’s there for if not to be served in the tavern? But on the other hand, you can also see it the other way around; if Tom gave us the option to serve a hot meal instead, why not use that if it gives you less trouble? Maybe it’s even healthier. I’ve seen young children consume alcohol. Early alcoholism… Hm…. I think I prefer roasted meat!😉
I might remember wrong and I’m not sure in which mod combination I played but don’t merchants bring lime and copper if you haven’t loaded the production sites? I’m sure that I played a game with some DS houses in a mod that didn’t have iron fittings. He was the first to introduce those,as far as I know. I think it was in an earlier version of the North and I remember how I waited for the merchant. But I think Tom has made some principle changes in the trade after that so it may not work like that anymore.
Even if I still don’t find the Bryggen houses cheap with all those iron fittings, I can agree that there should be more glass but maybe not roof tiles. Even if many of those houses may have roof tiles now, I don’t think they had originally.
I think the DS Townhouses are worth some more effort in adapting, especially the Bryggen houses. They are already patched by the North but not in terms of building materials. I will look at this.
The idea of a permanent crayfishing site I noted as an idea. Could be quite nice. I remember, Bartender and his companion did such a fish trap some time ago. A problem I see is how to avoid them to be stringed along a stream for unrealistic yield. I mean, the crayfishing tool can be abused as well but it’s at least temporary.
And this issue with the alcohol in tavern is something I really want to solve now, because it affects so many other buildings and macro-management in mid and late game should be supported as good as possible. A sacrificed flag can also open up some more fixes or features.