Banished Ventures

Testing North 7 v3

  • This topic has 64 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by Vrayna.
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  • #5467
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    I did some more testing about food and herbs today. First I filled again markets with different food items in same amount to see how people gather and consume food, now more accurate. And second I tried some changes on herbs to make them more efficient and to solve this drop in productions if running a herbalist.

    One result and now I’m 100% sure is that people gathering food at markets and eating in houses have no clue about weight or category of food items. They take and eat something of everything in same number of food probably in a random loop until their inventory is full or hunger is satisfied. If food items tend to pile up in a game while others are more consumed then it must have reasons but it is not because citizens prefer certain food. At least it is not reproducible.

    Watching people visiting the herbalist in different setups was quite interesting. They visited in same frequency of how health is recalculated and stopped always at the healthy/unhealthy cut. So they consume herbs not until 5 hearts but until 4, only to get rid of unhealthy state.

    In Norseman and now included in North7 this frequency was set to 1 month as I saw it in 1:1 aging mod back then and thought it makes sense. In vanilla it’s recalculated every 3 month, obviously for reasons and not only to reduce CPU effort. The problem with a lower value is that after consuming a herb to get health up to 4 hearts it is set back by diet after 1 month and people have to start visiting the herbalist again. To do this walkway every month is really distracting from work. With 3 month, the health effect of a herb lasts 3 times longer which turns out as a true improvement. It just makes herbalism 3 times more efficient by that simple parameter.

    Actually I did not want to change such things in end of the Beta but this health recalculation thing is a good tweak and I see no potential side effects.

    #5468
    Nilla
    Participant

    Agree, even I would consider a 3 time efficient herbalist. ;)

    You said in that other answer that barrows come in pairs. But they don´t 1 fitting and 1 log makes 1 barrow. I´ve told you before in some early remark that barrows are the only thing I´ve found that makes a loss; the value of the input is higher than the output. I think this is a bug and that you wanted 2. It´s still no good business and I would buy barrows if I could but at least it doesn´t destroy material to make some anymore.

    Are you really sure it works that way when people gather food to their houses; that they grab the same amount of each different food? In that case, I can only explain that it´s the vendor´s fault only that there´s a big difference between what´s in the houses and what´s in the inventory and that the people have poor health.

    #5470
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    This way I did the tests, market filled up with food items of different weight and with single or multiple categories but same amount and it ends up so in houses as well. Also eaten in same amount. Will take a closer look at vendors.

    The barrows are made in pairs in my excel file but not in the mod.. Tztz

    Attachments:
    #5473
    Nilla
    Participant

    I played around a bit yesterday and wanted to test some easier gameplay. I don´t think I ever used the “Villager” start. It´s supposed to be the easiest, isn´t it? I have a couple of suggestions to really make the start easier. There are hard options if you want but I don´t think, you like the easiest option to scare some people away from the North because the start might be a little tricky. Isn´t it better to make the starting conditions as easy as possible?

    You will have a lack of firewood right at the beginning. There are 5 houses from the start but only something like 100 firewood. The fastest will grab it and some houses will show the freezing sign. It wouldn´t hurt much to triple the amount of firewood from the start. There is a woodcutter built and some logs in store, so it isn´t hard to start to produce firewood at once but why make the start harder (and scarier when you see the freezing sign) than necessary at the easiest option?

    The first map I opened had flax as seed from the beginning. It looks like they have one random seed for each field and orchard. Why not give them turnips, barley and apples to start with?

    Also, livestock seems to be random. If I didn´t look all too wrong, the flax map had all three of them. In my game, I have sheep and chicken. The animals you need early are sheep. Why don´t give it to them and leave the others? It only takes focus away at the beginning to take care of a few chickens. I know that it doesn´t matter at the beginning if you take care of them or not, but does a newer player know this?

    I now also know why I thought the sandpit had 2 miners as default start. I mixed it up with the larger clay pit. Maybe you´ve already checked but I find it also should have 1.

    First picture
    Scary start with freezing signs.

    Second picture
    I couldn´t resist building the small chapel as one merchant brought a bible. So now we have double nomad attractors and are growing FAST (at least for a real-time ageing game.)

    I also ordered some bricks and roof tiles and believe it or not; he returned the next year with the ordered goods. Sometimes it takes 20 years! But no one have brought glass, yet. So I guess that´s what we need to wait for “forever”

    Attachments:
    #5476
    Nilla
    Participant

    If you look at the second picture, you can see that I´m about to build a windmill, granary and baker (low left). I played a little and it runs but not very well. It doesn´t look like the miller dares to take any rye from the granary. He has ground a bit but only grain that he gets himself in the village. Now all rye is in the granary and the “out of material” sign is shown.

    Attachments:
    #5478
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    Oh, that’s nice you are looking at this start as well! I have increased firewood to 300, gave them all crops (barley, rye, turnip, onions and flax) and only sheep to make sure they start with this livestock. I also fixed the granary.

    #5479
    Vrayna
    Participant

    Edit: And now I notice that we’re on Page 3 of this thread and I was still on page 2. I hadn’t seen you had a look at the health thing already Tom :D
    Well, you can read this anyway, it confirms what you saw and confirms that the change to how often health and “need to get healthy!” calculations happen will indeed affect production pretty strongly.

    I’ve had a look at the production drop when you turn on an herbalist. It kinda only happens when your people were unhealthy, because they’ll go there as often as they are allowed to (twice per season? once per “month”?).
    So basically, as long as they are not doing good, they waste a lot of time getting better. Without the herbalist, they’d only waste a little bit of time trying to look for an herbalist.

    If they were reasonnably healthy, there’s still the initial production hit as they all rush there at once (so never open an herbalist right at harvest time), but things even out pretty fast.
    Once they are healthy, they will only try to go to the herbalist if their health drops, so once or twice a year. That’s a less of a waste of time than having them “look for an herbalist” once a month.

    My “healthy” (all food groups, market cart to make sure everyone eats everything) village of 29-32 people consumed a total of 28 herbs over a year, so visited the herbalist only once (the youngest kids probably don’t drop under 5 hearts in their first year).
    Unhealthy village of only 21 people used the 65 herbs I had in storage, maybe they’d have used more if more had been available.

    And no screenshot because I’m a derp and forgot my laptop at my parents so I only have my hand-written notes…

    #5480
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    Thank you for your notes, Vrayna. I think, recalculating every 3 months is a nice setup. It calms down their herb addiction quite well.^^

    I will give myself 3 days to rework my own translation (others can follow later without stress) and to look over the final mod as a whole. Then to release North7 on Thursday, December 12th.

    #5481
    Nilla
    Participant

    Not much to say about my game; it´s quite easy to play on “mild” with farming; no need for a lot of micromanagement opposite to “harsh” or seafarer. That´s perfect! Something for everyone!

    I just loaded the summary of my first impressions. I will make some further comments.

    Of course; I like it, like all other versions of the North. This version has further developed the start in “old days”. The Viking design buildings are beautiful.
    It would be nicer if the starting buildings at “villager” were”frame houses” instead of the log cabins. You can´t build any more log cabins early (unless you are very lucky with the merchants) and if you want the “Viking look” of the village, you need to replace them; not nice. Now, it is good that you have the workshops from the start but since you can´t grind flour in them anymore, they aren´t quite so useful as they were. I used them at the beginning to make wadmal and clothes but since you need a tannery (and iron fittings) anyway to make use of the wool, it´s no big deal to also build a tailor.

    The Iceland scenario; seafarer is clever and can develop further to a real challenge.
    The amount of birches (or rather the absence of birches) is now perfect. You can manage to get enough fuel and wood to build but you need to be very careful and it´s a struggle. It makes a lot of fun and is different from most other games. Also the absence of deer works, it makes the start harder but not impossible.

    The trade has developed with a special export port that will make it easier to make a big trade economy and is fun to use even if you don´t trade so much.
    These ports work, also when you need to trade a lot for food. In a “heavy trade game” it´s nice that you can make business with all merchants.

    I like the development of more complex clothes production and complex building materials for advanced buildings. The balancing is good. There are also a lot of smaller details that have improved the mod. Also buildings that have been there for quite some time as separate mods are now included Still agree.

    There are other changes I´m not sure if I like or not. Partly because I´ve played it to little and partly because I see good as well as bad effects. Now after I´ve played a bit more I can say a little more.

    The different kind of stones
    Why not? I basically like it, even if it could be developed further. First, I must say; in no game, there´s been a lack of small stones. But on the other hand, opposite to a vanilla game, there´s seldom lack of stone in a Nordic game. I also think that it´s a good decision not to give the boulders an own “button”, as I suggested right at the beginning. You only need boulders for the Thingstead at the beginning and maybe if you want to build a crossing over a stream but otherwise it will not be used. The third kind of stone; ashler are also rarely used. I´ve only used it for the temple. That´s a pity. Why not make use of these worked stones in more buildings? It would be logical that stones you pick (or take from a quarry) must be cut before they can be used in fancier buildings. Why not replace stones with ashler in all “modern” buildings?

    stone tools for early use Already gone; good.

    Christianity only with a bought bible It´s OK now after the Thingstead bring more nomads.

    smaller reindeer herds OK, doesn´t hurt.

    longer-lasting tools OK, doesn´t make that the game feels easier and I also find that your arguments for this make sense.

    heavy turnips and cabbage As far as I have seen it´s all vegetables except beans, not only turnips and cabbage as I thought. I don´t like this and I don´t like your argumentation about calories. Why calories? Why not vitamines? Or some other essential content in food?
    I believe you when you say that weight has no importance of how people pick food into their houses. Still, I am sure that it makes trouble by distribution, probably by the vendors. I also see no sense in giving all the food in one category this disadvantage. What does it add to the gameplay? It makes farming of vegetables harder. But why should it be harder to farm vegetables than grain? It´s cheaper to bye than grain but you can process most grain, what you can´t with vegetables (with one small exception). Which evens the value.
    Different weight of some goods could add something to the gameplay but only if it´s used in all/most categories to motivate a change to more advanced products. Say; turnips; high output also for uneducated on harsh, weight 3, cabbage; lower output especially for uneducated on harsh, weight 2, sauerkraut weight 1. Or meat and fish. weight 3, smoked and roasted meat and fish, weight 2, salted, weight 1. Something like that.

    There are two things I don´t like:
    Problems to get enough logs and fuels have limited the development of this settlement. I don´t mind if this would have been in “seafarer” only. But it´s been that way all the game, also after the forests have grown dense. I don´t find that “normal” for a Nordic scenario. If we have one thing here; it´s a lot of forests. If I understand your change log, you have planned some changes here; good.

    The changes work. I don´t find it too easy to get enough logs/fuel.

    The difficulty to get early nomads. In North 6 I usually built a small chapel as soon as everyone had a house and the basic tool production was working. Here I need to wait for a bible. It´s good that the Thingstead bring nomads, it can be constructed almost as fast as an old chapel. But it looks like the nomads are rare. I need many early nomads to enjoy a real-time game. Otherwise, it becomes too much the same micromanagement year after year until enough children become adult and you can really start to develop your settlement. You can build new sites but haven´t enough people to staff them. I find the year 5-30 boring in such a game. It doesn´t make the game easier if you can grow by immigration during this time, on the contrary; all these people need food, houseíng, tools…
    It´s been better but I see no reason that the Thingstead can´t attract nomads on “seafarer”. Alright, there will be no domestic nomads if we are on Iceland but other immigrants from oversea will arrive. They would come there, also without a chapel.

    Other notes;
    I´m glad that you´ve dropped the “Berry Tweak” and wouldn´t mind if you would drop the “bean tweak” as well.
    Something needs to be done about the big markets. They don´t work, at least not in my games.
    Good to increase the efficiency of herbalists; especially now with that sweet little healer´s hut.

    Finally; WELL DONE! I think it´s “ripe” enough to be released.

    #5482
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    Good idea about the villagers. I added this now, can be nicely further developed.

    Attachments:
    #5510
    Vrayna
    Participant

    I tried building the mini townhall from Kralyerg’s minibuildings, and I’m getting consistant crashes when I click on it (even before it’s built).
    I seem to remember it working fine with North 6, so I’m not sure what’s happening.

    #5511
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    Oh that’s not nice, I will look what’s wrong with it.

    #5513
    Vrayna
    Participant

    I’m not sure it makes a difference, but it was in a seafarer start, so could it be because of the nomads restriction thing?

    #5514
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    It has to do with nomads but in another way. Crashes when clicking a building are always UI problems and my townhall UI has no immigration tab anymore while the mini hall attracts some. Fixed for next update.

    Looking at this set I found some more minor issues I want to fix. Also, 10 logs for such mini buildings are very expensive. This tent would actually be built of a few branches which don’t count and linen. Do you think people will hate me if I change it this way? =)

    #5515
    Nilla
    Participant

    With linen, for sure you will get complains. ;)

    #5516
    Vrayna
    Participant

    The tents might have linen, but most of the other tiny things are just tree stumps, logs, branches.

    #5517
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    Linen I would add only for tents. Others would still need logs but in a more reasonable amount. The mini fishing pier I already changed to 4 back then. In original version they all need 10 logs. Of course, linen would make tents useless as early game house and maybe better to just let it as it is.

    #5518
    Vrayna
    Participant

    We can pretend they’re using their old destroyed clothing, all stitched together as cloth for the tents. Or the sails from their boat. ;)

    #5519
    Tom Sawyer
    Keymaster

    Haha ok, I take it as a “leave it” =)

    #5604
    Vrayna
    Participant

    Someone on Discord is reporting an issue with chestnuts: They’re buying the seeds, but they can’t be used in orchards or fields.
    I haven’t been lucky enough to see those seeds on a merchant, so I can’t confirm the problem, but he’s tried it a couple of times in the same town, without luck.

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