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Testing North 7 v3

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  • #5377
    Nilla
    Participant

    That other thread was long, so I´ll start a new.

    Since you´ve made some major changes, I guess you want the “seafarer” start tested. I´m still not fond of the absence of early nomads but since you put all this work into this mod, Tom, I can endure some slow starting years. I will tell a bit more in detail about my starting strategies.

    How do you manage the start? These people were wise enough not to bring any children on this hazardous trip (luck/bad luck or always so?) so there were “only” 6 adults to support with food during spring and summer. But they didn´t bring much food, there are no deer, no berries from last year left, a fisher hut needs tar……

    Anyway, I put 2 trout fisher at the river. It was enough to survive until the fields were harvested and a few berries started to grow among the birches. There´s not much wild food but fortunately a lot of deadwood. I think I was pretty lucky with this map. There are not so few trees around the starting position. If I remember it right, there were less on the first map I tried (and rejected because the starting spot was too far away from water and trout fishing or maybe cray fishing are the only way I see to survive the seafarer start).

    I´ll show you some picture and tell/ask a little something to each of them.

    First picture
    Start.
    I wasn´t sure if trout fishing would be enough so I also sent a hunter to get some black grouse, but it doesn´t give much meat. There are also two fields; one for turnips, one for barley. From my last game, I was a bit tired of farming on “harsh”, so I choose a “fair” climate in this game. It´s a big difference.

    I also made the decision to go for a real clay pit from the start. Since the pit house stores are the most efficient stores/used log, I will only build these small stores first. So we will need more clay at the beginning than usual.

    Second picture
    One year passed. Soon everyone will have a house. I don´t know if it was a mistake to build a gouthi as the first house. It needs 9 logs less than the turf house but if it needs about 10 firewood more each year, they will soon be “eaten/heated” – or not. I have a small chopper but it hasn´t chopped one single log. I only use deadwood. There will be no food problems with farming on “fair”, so I will not need to hold back the number of children. But now it´s there and it will stay, at least for a while.

    The barns are full and I do mean full. The turnips need a lot of space, so we will need a couple more. We could also make some tar and charcoal and are about to replace one trout fisher with an ordinary fishing dock.

    One question about the pastures; is it a difference in the breeding of livestock if you have a herdsman or not?

    Third picture
    Things are developing. I´ve used the iron they brought for some tools but also a few iron fittings so we could build a tanner and a tailor. For a future development; it would be nice with an early buildable workshop where you could make wadmal and wool coats and maybe you could add making leather from sheepskin and deer hides to the campfire. It ought to be at a slow speed to motivate the construction of the real sites but I find them a bit too “fancy” (and expensive) at this early point.

    We have a Thingstead and have collected materials for a trading port. After the harvest, we will produce the needed wheelbarrows. I try to take care of the forest when I locate things like the Thingstead or the moved larger pasture; using spots where I can keep as many trees as possible. When I need logs, I only cut single trees here and there. And we still haven´t cut one single tree for firewood.

    I´m not sure but it looks like the heavy turnips have a not very pleasant side effect: I grew turnips the first two years. After that, the barns were so full of turnips that I decided to close the fields one year. In fact, it became more than one year; I have grown no turnips after that. 3 of the barns are still well filled with turnips but the people don´t bother to carry more than a few into their houses. (I suppose they are too heavy). You can see the house stores open. I´ve looked into the houses and it looks like the Bannis get about the same amount= weight of each food category from the barn. When they eat they take one of each. That means that the heavier food disappears much faster and after a short time there´s only light food like fish and barley left. The health gets down, even if you have enough of all food well distributed. Have anyone else noticed something like this?

    #5378
    Nilla
    Participant

    Ooops, forgot the pictures.

    Attachments:
    #5382
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    Yes, that’s nice to play another Iceland map to see how the changes turn out in a long run. I played one too for testing and did not miss the reindeer. Makes it more clear to have to focus on farming. I also started with two fishers but think you could also survive until the first yield by eating some sheepies.

    They can have up to 2 children per couple in Seafarer, so it was bad luck in your case.

    Without a herdsman, livestock does not get offspring. What I don’t know is when they are needed, over the whole time or only in spring when lambs appear. Something we can try to figure out. Smurphy seems to be a fan of such puzzles too.^^

    I will also run a test map to look at this food issue you mentioned.

    #5384
    Nilla
    Participant

    I think you are wrong about the sheep, Tom. First, I don´t think it´s a good idea to eat most of the initial 8 sheep they brought because that´s what you would need to do if you´re not fishing. It will be at least 4 months until anything will grow and in that time the 6 Bannis will need at least 200 food=5 sheep. They normally don´t start to breed at once. Second, the lambs don´t only appear in spring. It´s during the whole year and it looks like the sheep also get offspring when there´s no herdsman working. It´s less than if he´s working but the herd still grows.

    It´s difficult to measure the influence of the herdsman. If the pasture is full, you need one to slaughter. If you´re not slaughtering the herd will grow to 3 more than the pasture can hold, no matter how big it is and then stop growing until some are slaughtered.

    At the beginning of this game when I´m short on workers, I have a herdsman assigned but I take him away in August/Septemeber to pick berries, November/December to pick deadwood and April/May deadwood again, so he´s working as shepherd about the ½ time. Normally 8-10 sheep are slaughtered this way. The last two years, I let him stay at his pasture the whole year; the first year 13, next 16 sheep were slaughtered.

    The last picture shows a sheep experiment. I split the herd; the smaller pastures for 15 sheep was full from the start and occupied a herdsman all the time. The large pasture had 19 sheep after the split and no herdsman sat his foot there. After about 1 year the herdsman in the small pasture had slaughtered 9 sheep and the herd without a herdsman grew from 19 to 32 at the same time.

    Conclusions? Not more than; if you want as much meat as possible from a herd; employ a herdsman. If you need him elsewhere, you can take him away only losing a little meat.

    The food situation has improved. I still can see more meat, fish and barley in the house stores but it looks like houses with many inhabitants more often have some turnips in the stores. I have also bought some beans, weight 1, that the Bannis seem to love and some other vegetables. I thought the processed sauerkraut would “lose weight” at the processing but it doesn´t; still the weight of 3.

    First picture

    The healer´s hut looks lovely but I´m no “herbalist person” and I hope there are other testers who are, so I decided not to spend 24 logs on it. I hope there will be more buildings in that style in the future.

    Second picture

    This screenshot is from year 14. I add a picture from my last game year 14. Compare the forest. A big difference. I can manage but I need to collect logs during several years when I want to build something like the chapel, that need more logs. And without the deadwood, I would have been forced to make exactly what the Vikings did on Iceland! I have deliberately not built any forester, yet, just to test. What is with the forester trees? Do they also grow this slow? Or can we “cheat Iceland” by building foresters?

    Talking about the chapel; The pause sign is missing on the footprint. I couldn´t understand why no one cleared the ground and brought building materials. I used the priority tool; nothing. I´ve forgotten that I paused the building site during some harvest season and there was no sign to remind me.

    The fields are typical; all barley harvested, only very little turnips. So far, I find the – weight higher than the + when it comes to the heavy turnips.

    Fourth picture
    Pasture experiment.

    Attachments:
    #5389
    1
    Participant

    I get one idea for making chicken egg production little more realistic. In harsh conditions chickens wont lay eggs in winter time, because lack of daylight and too cold temperature.
    I don’t now how the game mechanics work, so is it easy to do. Its maybe hard to make it very realistic with right temperature and all, but maybe make them lay eggs better in summer, less in autumn, and zero in winter.

    </The health gets down, even if you have enough of all food well distributed. Have anyone else noticed something like this?>
    This what Nilla wrote.

    I little wonder, nothing is enough for them, but i did not pay attention much of it, because i did not got perfect welfare. In general i just notice hard to make them happy and healthy. I just thought, Tom Sawyer really want to make this more challenge.

    #5390
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    I remember, that herdsman thing was about no worker -> no slaughtering -> no room for offspring -> aging and finally dying out of a herd. So you can micromanage livestock and just has to take some animals away when a pasture is full, right?

    To connect any livestock mechanics to seasons or temperature like less eggs in winter or something similar is not possible by modding.

    The birches are now nicely slow spreading and almost sticking to their initial areas as they should. I will keep this setup. You can of course introduce forestry on Iceland but I would not call it a cheat. Pines are now also a bit slower spreading especially not so far away.

    The missing pause icon I have fixed now. Found it also in a few other buildings.

    #5391
    1
    Participant

    That is, what i was a little afraid of. If it would be possible, im sure you would have done it all ready. But i wasent 100 percent sure.

    Sorry to bother with stupid questions.

    #5392
    Vrayna
    Participant

    I had an “interesting” thing happen in my game.
    1- Outbreak of tuberculosis on July, Year 13.
    2- As you can see it spread quite quickly. Already 4 sick the next month.
    3- A couple of people recovered, a kid died in August, and still more got sick. By September I was up to 13 sick people, and work around town was basically not happening.
    4- A couple more people died in October, more recovered, and finally the outbreak was over, with the last sick person being the first one to be buried in my brand new graveyard in November.

    That tuberculosis outbreak killed 1 worker and 3 kids, one of them being 11 and so close to turning into a worker. Sick people also didn’t work, so I lost most of the barley, couldn’t pick the mushrooms/berries, or firewood (I forgot to turn off the charcoal burner too. oops.). I had decent food stores, so my people didn’t starve, but… If it had happened a couple of years earlier it’d have killed my town.

    While it adds a good dose of realism to not be able to build a hospital until pretty late in the game (roof tiles, bricks, glass), it’s rather deadly to not have a healer earlier on.
    I’m not sure how the death/recovery odds are calculated, but if health has an impact, I’d say the healer’s hut saved me, as most of my people were pretty healthy.
    I turned it on mid-outbreak to try and help the people who were missing some hearts. I have no clue if that helped, or if it contributed to the spread of the sickness when everyone gathered there with herbs to have a sip of tasty herb-tea.

    Attachments:
    #5397
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    Those cunning little bazillos.. trying not to kill your people directly but their economy and then hitting from behind via starvation.^^ So a good stock of stuff is a good counter against sickness in old times. Actually worth to enter my 15 or more survival tricks. =)

    What we think to know about health (from source files and testing) is that a citizen is healthy or unhealthy and the cut is at 80% which means 4 of 5 hearts and unhealthy guys have a much higher risk on getting sick. So all that caring about balanced diet and drinking tea is just to prevent people from outbreaks. If they are sick, only a doctor can help them.

    What I don’t like in your screens is the text “visiting the doctor” in a time where they have no clue of that at all. Maybe we find a better phrase.

    #5398
    Vrayna
    Participant

    They use a similar “visiting the herbalist” thing regularly too when they’re unhealthy*, even if you have no herbalist built.

    *Just the regular “could use more hearts” kind of unhealthy, not the “sick, might die” kind.

    #5399
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    Maybe something like “… suffers from a serious sickness and is unable to work.” Fits in both cases with and without a doctor.

    And for the herbal case “… feels unhealthy and is looking for a herbalist.” Fits also if not available but they know about the old way and it gives a hint on what they want.

    Not sure about the best words and grammar.

    #5404
    Nilla
    Participant

    It´s been a long time since I had such an evil decease so early. In my last game 1 or 2 Bannis had Influenza once. It was later in the game, didn´t spread and had no consequences. A bad side effect of early diseases is that the people who were ill without a doctor are harder to get happy.

    Changing the text might be nice. I´ve always “made fun” of those people who are “visiting the herbalist” where there isn´t and never was any.

    I just saw; I made not one single screenshot yesterday. Probably a good sign; no bugs or other weird things. This version is getting mature.

    These screenshots are from where I stopped in year 23.

    First picture
    I just built this forester. I guess it would have been wise to build one earlier; I would recommend as early as possible on an Iceland scenario. But I wanted to test the original wood/fuel supply a little longer. So far my strategy of picking deadwood has worked fine. You can see the fuel graph. I had to use the chopper twice in the past few years; first after I´ve run the production of charcoal and potash at the same time, then again after I´ve made a larger batch of charcoal and tar.

    Second picture
    Here´s the village. Many people are fully happy but as usual; it´s hard to get the original settlers in turf houses happy. I´ve forgotten to ask, Tom: Do the Frame Houses still need more fule than the Turf Houses or did you make any changes here?

    Everyone is pretty healthy. There are still minor issues with turnips. I order as much beans as I can. If I buy 2000 beans they are gone fast. It looks like these people love this imported exclusive food. If I have 1 field that makes some 300 turnips, there are still turnips left in the stores next year. But if I look, there are turnips in some houses, especially now when most of the last batch of beans are eaten.

    The glassmaker looks a bit odd in this Viking village. I made the decision to build one because the forester needs so much glass. To be honest; the forester also looks odd in these surroundings. For the gameplay, it´s interesting that you need to invest a lot to be able to establish forestry on Iceland but from a historical point of view, it´s weird that you need glass to be able to plant a tree. I don´t think the Vikings could make glass, so a primitive-looking glassmaker would also be historically wrong. I would like it better if the small woodcutter cabin also could plant trees; at least at the Iceland scenario where I don´t think you can develop a larger settlement without forestry. (Or maybe you can if you import logs, I haven´t tried that option, yet, primarily because I want my beans)

    Attachments:
    #5410
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    This update made some unexpected trouble but it’s solved for now. Time to go back to modding the mod and not the site.^^

    From what I read, Vikings on Iceland first depleted the birch forests pretty fast, built then mainly turfhouses and also imported timber. What they never did there as far as I know is building large towns, making glass panes or doing forestry. So I would say you entered a later time already and the houses look a bit outdated now, next to the glass fabric. But what I have on my list since some time is a more medieval glassworks or furnace that doesnot break the style so much if built early.

    Framehouses I did not change in fuel consumption. I still like the idea to make them a bit less suitable for harsh climate where solid wooden or turf houses were more common.

    #5411
    Nilla
    Participant

    It might be possible to make a real Iceland scenario. After I´ve built a second larger port, I´ve started to order logs. Last year I even got more than 150 logs. So I guess that I could have stayed in the “real Viking time period” longer.

    I now also understand why the beans I order disappear so fast; these “little bastards” prefer a double potion of beans over the cheaper and easier mutton and turnips; the same thing the blueberries everyone pick in the fall do disappear fast; they don´t need any barley if they take a double portion. This is a big disadvantage you get when you let something belong to more than one category.

    I´ve never liked beans as both proteins and vegetables but I haven´t complained about it because there have always been alternatives. I have simply avoided beans. I also didn´t say anything about your “berry tweak” before I´ve tested it. But I can say; I don´t like it. This effect of Bannis eating expensive berries instead of cheaper grain is one disadvantage and the “positive effect” you has as motivation; to make it easier at the beginning to achieve full health is for me a negative effect; you take away a part of the challenge you have with the harder starting options where you can´t farm for grain. I find it would be much better to add barley from start to the easier starting options and leave the berries as fruit only.

    I have one question about bricks and roof tiles: As I´ve seen, they can only be bought from the Hanseatic merchant and he arrives very seldom to the small port. That´s OK. I could order bricks and roof tiles after some years and after something like 15 years, he arrived with the ordered goods; only, he brought more than 100 bricks and only 25 roof tiles. It was something very similar in my last game: a lot of bricks but not enough roof tiles to build a school or brickyard. Is this bad luck or something left from North 6 where you needed more bricks than roof tiles to build a brickyard (if I remember it right)? Anyway, when they arrive so seldom, it would be nice if you can get enough roof tiles to build a brickyard without needing to order the roof tiles a second time.

    #5412
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    I tried to reproduce what you wrote about food.. looked at people for a while when they fill markets, gather food from markets and when eating. At citizens I cannot see any preferences for certain food items. They take something from everything, sometimes more or less from this or that but they seem to have no clue about size or category. Vendors take much from one item and then from next pile until 500 weight but I see also no preference for beans or berries. Can be I’m too tired to catch it right now. Forgot to buy coffee when I was in the village and that’s harder to survive than expected. =)

    Bricks and Tiles have the same stack size. I think you got only 1 of tiles and 4 of bricks. I slightly increased the amount for a better chance. Also, if you want a full boatload of bricks and tiles you should not order something else. Merchants bring 8 stacks of goods and that’s shared over all ordered items. In case, someone did not know.

    #5413
    Nilla
    Participant

    I hope you´ve got your coffee, Tom. That´s one advantage now when I live in the town; there are 200 m to a supermarket. If I forget something, it takes a few minutes to get something instead of an hour as it used to be.

    If you take a look at the inventory and compare items in store and items in houses, you will see a difference. I made a screenshot of this in year 24 as I looked a bit closer at it and I also looked as I stopped the game in year 34 (yes, I´ve started a new game, more to that later).

    58%/49% of all the beans
    70%/56% of all berries
    32%/39% of all turnips
    26%/14% of all mutton
    6%/4% of all barley
    6%/7% of all salmon

    are to be found in the homes. My conclusion is that they prefer beans and berries, no matter how much there are in total. I cut the menus together in the first picture.

    As I said, I decided to stop this game but I wanted to stop it with a “hammer” by building a temple! Yes, it is possible to build a temple at an Iceland scenario, also with a small population. It´s built of imported logs.

    I wasn´t tired of my first game. It was nice and I could very well have played it further but I want to try a “normal” scenario because I want to compare how much easier the wood/log situation is.

    First picture
    Comparistion of inventories store/homes.

    Second picture
    Overwiev Iceland village.

    Third picture
    I had to start the new game twice; in the first, one of these berserk huntresses was in action. After she killed most of the deer in the big herd she went on with the black grouse. Killing rage!

    Fourth picture

    It´s an Anders and Ella start on a small lowland map, harsh climate, disasters on. I wasn´t sure of what to do but I started with a large claypit and a trading port (even used the 4 iron they brought for wheelbarrows). It worked out and the first merchant even brought cows. They could also collect enough boulders to build a Thingstead. Now we are waiting for new inhabitants.

    Attachments:
    #5418
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    My barn is filled again including a good stock of this brown stuff from overseas. In your village, I would probably also hoard beans and berries instead of dry barley grain. But where do you think is it happening? Do the vendors select it somehow or is it in markets in eval ratio and citizens really prefer certain items because I can’t see it in my tests. And maybe all the barley doesn’t reach houses because it is stored somewhere not so available. I will look into it again now.

    So you used the initial iron to rush for a trading dock. Sounds like a good strategy. That was really a nice idea with some iron bars at the beginning for various options to go.

    #5419
    Nilla
    Participant

    I think this selection comes both from vendors and the inhabitants filling their homes. Beans, barley, turnips and mutton are similar good distributed in close barns to the market wagon, berries more far away. So I don´t think it has much to do with where the goods are stored. It´s so much more obvious to see in a village like this where there are so few different kinds of food. It´s simple statistics and probability calculation; if a vendor has room for 200 fruit in his cart; he´ll get 200 blueberries but for 200 grain, he vill statistically get 100 berries and 100 barley. Now there are 300 berries and 100 barley in the stores. The inhabitant that grabs food acts in the same way; the consumption of a double-category food is 3 times as high as a single category food if you only have one alternative. If we would have had other grain products as well, the consumption of “grain berries” would probably not have been this high.

    I will go on in my new village and keep an eye on this. Anyway; everyone is 100% healthy without ever seeing a real grain. I don´t find that that´s an improvement of the gameplay. If you´ve given Anders and Ella some barley seed, it would be a consideration; should I grow barley or turnips, both or none of them? That´s much nicer to me.

    It would be interesting how other testers find the “berry tweak” (and the protein beans in combination with all other(?) vegetables being 3 times as heavier).

    #5420
    Nilla
    Participant

    Is there a difference in function between the mead hall and the ale house?

    #5421
    Tom SawyerTom Sawyer
    Participant

    They have same functions but the Ale House is twice as fast in brewing ale.

    Actually I wanted the Mead Hall more different but landed at normal tavern functions. When I made it, I created it as a townhall where people can also drink but found it somehow overpowered. Another idea was to add a tab where all people of the project are listed as in my credits here, since that picture inside of the great hall is exactly this mead hall. But not sure if people want to be mentioned in game.

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