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Testing North7

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This topic contains 61 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Nilla 6 hours ago.

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  • #5118

    Nilla
    Member

    You know me, Tom. I like to write my comments on a daily basis. I guess you´ll prefer this page rather than my usual blogs on WOB. I plan to make it as usual when I test something new; personal comments of things I like/dislike, questions, suggestions….

    Actually, I haven´t started a game yet. I just downloaded and took a brief look at the menus. My first impression is WOW! The new buildings really look fantastic. I do look forward to building them.

    A few questions about the new starting options: I took a look at the new terrain “lowland”. It seems to have a little bit more mountains and hills than the earlier forest terrain. Are there any other changes in the terrain types?

    I read that there are no nomads in new start “seafarer”. Really? A real-time game without nomads? I don´t think I could play that. Or do you have any other “goodies” for impatient players like me, to make such a start more tempting?

    I also read that “Christianity” need to be “bought” from merchants. That´s not a bad idea but it will probably also mean that it takes much longer to build the small chapel that can attract nomads. Or can that pagan idol or the Thingstead attract nomads, too?

    I will start a game later this afternoon and tell you how it went on tomorrow.

    #5131
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Nice to read you here. I don’t mind blogging on WOB but yes, why not testing this board while testing the mod. Maybe I get some ideas how to improve it for this use. At least handling bugs and beta issues is easier on this separate board.

    Terrains are completely unchanged, I just renamed the Forest to Lowland because as Seafarer you settle in a land where this term would not fit. If there are more hills than usual it must be just “luck”.

    To deal with the new conditions as lone Seafarer is thought to be a special challenge only in this scenario but doesnot mean it’s also interesting to play. Let’s see. In all other starts you probably have a point about missing early nomads with the chapel depending on trade. To let Thingsteads attract some nomads sounds already like a good idea. They do not yet.

    Looking forward to your blog. It’s an open forum now, so everyone can read.

    #5139

    Nilla
    Member

    I started a new game. It feels good to be a “test pilot” again. First, I didn´t know what starting options I wanted to play. Usually, I try to test new settings but the only really new starting option; the seafarer is not for me. When I read about the changes, I see nothing about farming, so I´ve decided to play a game on “harsh”. Which to me means no farming and why not make it as extreme as possible with the “survivor” start.

    I´m kind of glad for this choice. Not because this is a smooth, calm game but because I discovered one important thing that needs to be changed: the herds of deer are much too small and fragile.

    With “survivor” you have nothing from the start. After you´ve taken away the spawning berries from the start (good, and logical) the only option left for survival until summer is the “instant hunting”. There were 2 small herds in an acceptable range from the start. I killed 3 deer. That´s an absolute minimum. I even needed to “fake demolish” the first house to let the 102 venison they have hoarded “out on the market” for everyone. This “overhunting” (?) lead to that one of the herds was totally extinguished. I never saw the single deer left again. The other herd did come back with 4 deer. After I´ve killed two of them, I occasionally saw 2 deer but never again more. A bit later one of them seemed to have died of natural causes, so now the settlement occasionally is visited by a single deer and I can´t see any herds nowhere on the map. There might be a few deer hiding in the forests but hunting totally 5 deer seemed to make more or less every deer on the map disappear.

    I don´t think this is your intention, Tom. I can agree that hunting was a bit overpowered. But I find that reducing the output of meat from each deer and maybe also only allow one hunter in the hunting lodge can solve the “problem”. It might be OK to make the herds generally a bit smaller but I don´t find the idea of not letting the herd grow if there´s only one single deer left good. Deer seem to die of natural causes, hunters also kill a deer when he sees one on his way to “his” hunting circle, so it´s not possible to prevent to extinguish small herds by accident.

    So imagine a Nordic game without farming and without hunting. I say; a real struggle! It feels like “Ironman” even if it´s not. (I don´t even think it´s possible to survive an Ironman game) The poor Bannis have walked around in rags most of the time. I was happy as one merchant brought wool but after I´ve built a tailor, I realized that you can´t make any coats with only wool. I don´t mind that you need to make Wadmal first, that´s good and logical but why do you need leather for all kind of clothing? Maybe you think of shoes. That might make sense.

    I also made some other notes;
    The possibility to make stone tools at the campfire makes the “survivor” start much easier. They certainly don´t last long but help a lot at the beginning.

    Is it possible to have different “buttons” for small and big stones? It´s hard to see the stones in the forests and I accidentally cut big ones as I wanted small and it was also a struggle to find 18 boulders for the Thingstead.

    I´m not so fond of the changes of the mini clay pit. First, the miner can never climb out of it after he´s got his 12 clay. There´s a homeless sign on his head and I guess that he will starve to death unless you send a builder to liberate him fast enough. You need to refill it with clay? A never-ending loop? I find some spare soil of minor quality would be more realistic. That would mean that it costs work but no material to demolish it. Like the changes, you´ve made at the pastures. I find that´s a good compromise between your old version and the vanilla costs.

    The bloomery seems to follow the limit of logs.

    I have a few more things on my notes and I can also show some screenshots later. But this is enough for now.

    #5141
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Good idea to start testing as survivor, the most tricky one to balance. Will answer by points.

    With the reindeer you might have been unlucky on your map. There are still big herds with up to 30 animals, just not that close to each other as in version 6. The smaller groups are more common and you probably had only those in your starting area which makes it then of course much harder to hunt enough. My idea here is to make the small groups of deer slightly bigger and also to let them re-spawn with minimum 2 or 3.

    Leather for tunics I added with belts and shoes in mind, yes. And to not make it too simple with clothing from wool where leather would then be almost useless. An idea is here to let herdsman take a sheep hide if they slaughter one for some leather. So shepherds can be self-sufficient but still need the tannery chain.

    A separate Button for Boulders is of course possible and probably liked by most players. I found it nice to move over the forest and to pick boulders for a Thingstead but can become annoying after the first time.

    About Stone Tools from the campfire, do you think it takes away the “thrill” of the survivor start? That’s still my concern about them but I liked the idea and wanted to try. The original idea was to add Flint to collect and to limit stone tools to early game in this way but it would be a new resource only for a very short part of the game.

    In my test, the miner always could get out of the empty Clay Spot (will do some more tests on different terrain) and the idea is to fill it with clay after starting a proper clay pit. Is not that cool to flatten the hole by filling it up? But I will think about it.^^

    The Bloomery will be fixed following the metal limit.

    Great to get some good feedback now to this version! I’m really used to work alone on things but it’s so much more productive this way.

    #5144

    Nilla
    Member

    I´m pleased that you appreciate my thoughts and findings.

    Reindeer
    I´m sure that there is something wrong with the deer. At least at this medium valley map. I can´t imagine that that´s purely bad luck. I went back to an early save (unfortunately I haven´t made many) and in year 4 there are actually quite a few deer to be seen all over the map, among others one larger herd. At the next save in year 17, I can´t find many and now in year 21, I only see one single deer. There might be a few hiding in the woods but certainly no herds. I also can’t remember that I´ve ever seen a small deer, so my guess is that there´s something wrong with the reproduction. (And I haven´t killed more than those 3+2 the first couple of years.) The same thing may go for the black grouse. They are harder to spot but there aren´t many to be seen at the later saves.

    Leather
    My shepherd has just started to slaughter and I can see no sheep hide to make leather from. And it looks like animal fat is food. I think I read in your description that it can be used for some production chain but since there isn´t much produced, my Bannis are very keen on this fat and it´s gone fast, so there will not be much left for the production of oil, candles or whatever can be made from it.

    Stone tools
    I don´t know if I find them good or bad for a survivor game. It made the start easier, faster and more relaxed. And since they wear out very fast, there´s no risk that you want to delay to build the iron production chain to use stone tools for a longer time. I didn´t make any notes but if I remember it right, you can make 3 tools from one stone and the production was surprisingly fast for a tool-less person. Maybe you could cut the production numbers a bit so that you need to invest more time and material to be able to take this shortcut. And there will still be enough other challenges with the survivor start.

    Clay
    Maybe my miners couldn´t leave because I built my 3 spots close to a mountain. (all 3 had the same issue). Does it have a front side? I can´t see any but if there is one and I happened to locate this side to the mountain, I can understand that the miner has problems to get out.
    I find it weird (from an engineering point of view) to refill a hole in the ground with valuable and difficult clay. There must be some spare rubble all over the place after all construction work that would be more suitable. You don´t need to see it and measure it, same as you don´t need to see and measure the spare wood you need for the animal shelter of the pastures.

    Other notes
    Since it takes quite some time to build a pasture, it would be nice if it would be possible to use more than one builder. Sometimes you would want it fast and I can see no reason to deliberately slow the construction time down.

    Do I need to bother to buy flax seeds on “harsh”?

    We might have talked about this before; you can´t build a road on spawning firewood without clearing it first. That´s pretty annoying.

    I haven´t looked all too much into the production numbers, yet. Just a little bit to see from what it´s worth to produce a surplus to sell. Here are a few remarks. More calculated numbers will come later: The value of the raw materials for wheelbarrows are higher than the product. The profit for iron fittings is very high (but I still haven´t sold many because there´s not much iron ore on the close ground and I can´t afford a mine, yet). You need less firewood to produce charcoal at the tar kiln than at the normal pile. Iron and iron tools are now more profitable with uneducated workers than it was. Maybe I was unlucky but now I have had no merchant bringing gold or silver. I liked very much to buy these metals from a merchant who pays well for my export goods and later use it by other merchants who are more stingy. This possibility seems to be gone. It´s just observations, I don´t know yet if I like the changes or not.

    I will try to add some screenshots.

    First picture
    An impression in year 4. We have just started to produce iron tools.

    Second picture
    Location of small clay pits.

    Third picture
    Overview of the settlement, its inhabitants and its storage in year 17. There´s a very small random interval between siblings. If one child is born in the first family, it takes a few months and one is born in the other family as well.

    Fourth picture
    An impression of an area with many pit frame buildings. Maybe it would be nice if there was a larger general barn in that style as the small one in the left low corner.

    I like the fences. Much more realistic for pastures and fields than the other types.

    Attachments:
    #5150

    Nilla
    Member

    I went on with this game today and I can say that things have turned out quite well. There are some changes to which you need to adapt your way of playing, but as you may understand; I like such things. The absent deer don´t hurt anymore since I have more beef, mutton, wool and leather than I need. (OK, I import some leather when I can, to be able to export the quite profitable clothing) One thing when I speak about meat; The cows still give far more meat than milk; the last 3 years with a full cow pasture average; 432 milk and 747 beef.

    I stopped the game to write this now because I had a crash. I could reproduce it, so it´s something you need to look at. It´s the big marketplace. The game crashed as I clicked on the footprint. I considered building it because my favourite additional mod; DS Wagon Vendor isn´t compatible; you can´t build any wagon parts. The blacksmith at the small DS-site just walks back and forth with some fittings, instead of bringing the needed iron bars. Here something must have been mixed up by renaming/reclassifying the materials. Now I have loaded the small markets from Kid´s Market Puzzle instead. They are also nice and I hope there will be no problems.

    I have some more notes on my sheet: an unlogical mixture of observations, questions, impressions, suggestions, feelings, you name it.

    The icon for the trapper is located by “food”. First I didn´t find it, but as I did at the foodstuff, I thought that he might produce meat as well. Now he doesn´t and the output of furs is very low. But on the other hand, if I remember it right; the furs bring a higher price now, so it´s still worth building. What´s the reason for these changes?

    I see a tiny problem that you need to build a farmer´s workplace before you can produce any tallow to run a mine. The farmer´s workplace needs glass and the merchants don´t bring any, even if I have ordered it from several. If another merchant hadn´t brought tallow, I would have been nervous about my tools and iron products. Now, I can accept that you need to advance a bit later in history to mine on a larger scale. But it´s not very logical, that mining is dependant on something so ancient as tallow and that you need a building with glass windows to produce it.

    What about potash and rope? Do I need to import it or can it be produced somewhere I haven´t found, yet?

    What´s the advantage of the more expensive frame house compared to the turf house?

    The limit of the sheep run says “food” but for some weird reason, it follows “wood”.

    I have made some more notes but I must confess, I can´t read or remember what I´ve written. Shame on me! But I think, if it´s important, I will remember eventually.

    I´ll add a screenshot from year 30 with the food graph. There´s a severe drop a few years ago. It happens when you play 5X and forget to send your Bannis out in the woods to pick wild food in time, followed by a very cold summer and autumn next year. Luckily there were some friendly merchants that saved us the year after that.

    Attachments:
    #5153

    irrelevant
    Member

    I’m also doing lowland survivors, but I can’t get the campfire built. When I place it, it does not show the “building” UI (with the necessary construction mats listed) rather it shows the UI with the production pull-down. But it needs construction mats and construction effort, and everyone is just ignoring it.

    Here I am again hijacking Nilla’s thread. But it seems silly to start a new one just for this. =]

    Hi Nilla!

    Attachments:
    #5159
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Welcome to the beta! The campfire doesnot need a builder, only some stone and firewood to start working. That’s why the production window is already shown. Same with chopping block and charcoal pit where a building guy with hammer and saw would be a bit strange.

    Since Nilla found already a bunch of bugs and also some nasty ones like crashing market or vanishing deer herds, I have uploaded a new version where these issues are fixed. In the sticky changelog you can find all points and on Beta main page you can download. It needs to start a new game.

    #5160

    irrelevant
    Member

    Ok, there it goes, just in time to start a new town =D

    eta: There was no firewood in storage, was why it wasn’t getting built.

    Attachments:
    #5169

    Nilla
    Member

    You can always hijack my threads, Irrelevant, you know that. Besides, the name of this thread is “Testing North 7” and that´s exactly what you are doing. So I find we can share this thread and if there are more testers who want to join us, that´s fine with me.

    So I will say goodbye to the settlement with the weird name and start a new game tonight. Now I will enjoy the advantage of living in the town and take my grandson to the swimbath.

    #5171
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    There are some open questions to answer, so far they are not solved by the update. :)

    The Trapper I moved to Hunting Cabin and Gatherer Shelter because I often saw people looking for it there and not in production. I think it makes sense here and the toolbar is now called Farming, Hunting… The fur price was a result of recalculating tailoring recipes if I remember right. I want to look at this to be sure I did not make a mistake.

    With Tallow you are right and the idea is to add a workshop matching old houses, probably in frame style, to make tallow and also some other processing. This is one of those models I wanted to make while the beta test is running.

    Potash is produced in the glass factory if not provided by traders. The idea is adding an Ashery for this job where I already picked photos of a historical building.

    With Ropes it’s the same but they have to be bought for now. I thought to make them from flax somewhere but not sure yet. I have photos of an old Swedish rope storehouse that could look nice also as a production building.

    Frame Houses are the first homes without disadvantage on happiness. They have an open fireplace as well and no windows but I think it would be quite nice to live there. The only other advantage could be 3 over 2 children in the turfhouse as it was in the preview mod.

    #5173

    Nilla
    Member

    Well Tom, I don´t expect all my thoughts turn into some changes of the mod. The bugs; sure but the rest is more observations that might be something to discuss or think about.

    When I looked at the trapper in the first game, he got about 30 furs worth 40 each year. It´s still a decent profit for a site without input. I didn´t make any fur coats. I seldom process the furs because I always think that the population will snatch all the expensive fur coats before I can get them into the port. Probably too stingy for my own good. I´m sure it would pay off even if a few Bannis want to be dressed in furs. ;)

    A workplace matching the older houses sounds good. But maybe you should leave the jam out. I don´t think there was any sugar available at the Viking era. But maybe your ropes could be added on a small scale. But a cool production site is always nice. I´m a big fan of old industrial buildings.

    I also wondered a bit about the houses because the menu says that the frame house is less warm than a massive wooden house (log cabin). That´s logical. Your Viki says that the turf house and log cabin has a warmth of 80%. So if this is still right the frame house would have an efficiency of 60%; and less good than the cheaper turf house. Or have you made any changes here?

    I started a new game earlier. And since you now promise nomads (that I haven´t seen yet, even with a trading dock and a Thingstead for quite a few years) I chose the new seafarer option. The text at the start still says no nomads but I hope this is something that only isn´t changed yet.

    The herds now reproduce alright. It still looks like there are fewer and smaller herds than in earlier versions. In “seafarer”, you have some sheep and even if it takes some time to build a tannery and tailor to be able to use the wool and sheepskin, I never ran totally out of coats. It´s hard to say how it would work at “survivors”, I guess there might still be some problems but that´s alright. Survivors should be hard. By the way; the menu of the sheeprun would need a 4th line to show all products.

    I like the new landscape with only birches. There wasn´t so much forest at my starting position so I was as careful as I could using logs at the beginning and I think that it paid off. The birch forests grow larger and denser. I´ll show some screenshots tomorrow.

    #5174

    Nilla
    Member

    As I promised; a few pictures from my new settlement.

    First picture
    Starting options. You can see that the birches are quite spare around the starting spot.

    Second picture
    The first years managed. The most important rule I followed; use as few logs as possible. This scenario might suggest that we are on Iceland but we will not do the same mistake as the vikings did. That means; use as much firewood from dead branches as possible. If there´s a choice; choose buildings that need few logs. You can see the stores; a small log shed need 10 logs for 400 goods, a pit shed 4 for 800 and a storehouse needs 36 logs for 1800 goods. That´s the reason for the many small pit stores.

    You may also see that I have no ordinary charcoal pile. When I first looked at the numbers, I thought that you´ve made some mistake, Tom. The ordinary pit needs 16 firewood for 12 charcoal, the tar kiln only 8. But when I think about how the production works, these numbers are totally logical. Both sites use the same principle; burning wood in the absence of oxygen. The difference is only that with the more complex construction, you can take advantage of the tar that´s also produced at the more simple kiln, but here it´s simply seeping into the ground and can´t be used. With the tar pit, I get the same amount of charcoal out of each firewood, the tar is simply a bonus. In that other game, I had both kilns and my impression is that the production at the normal charcoal pit is a little higher, so later if you need a lot of charcoal but not so much pit, it might be better. That´s good.

    Third picture
    We Nordic women have always been tough and strong; like carrying heavy stones in the snow slush.

    I´m not sure which God this idol represents. I hope it´s Freja; the fertility goddess. I´m pretty sure that would be the most likely idol for a peaceful settlement like this. The others are obvious male warrior Gods.

    Fourth picture
    Here´s where I stopped yesterday.

    I deliberately built the small clay pits close to the mountain, and yes, you fixed that bug, Tom. The miners needed no builder to be liberated from the pit.

    I show the food graph. I was a bit too ambitious about making a lot of food. The first summers were also warm and everything grew well, especially the heavy turnips! I built more small barns but they were filled in no time. The sinking food storage is partly deliberate. A combination of testing rye (no good idea at “harsh”), no more turnips until most of the stored turnips were eaten and cold weather. I hope I wasn´t “over-eager”. This is also a cold summer, the temperature is at its peak; 10 C at the moment. It´s August and soon time to start the harvest but you can see how the fields look like; not much to get this year. That´s why you need an overproduction of food good years if you want to be dependent on farming on “harsh”.

    The idea of making some food heavier than other is interesting. It gives a crop like turnips, that has a high output also with uneducated farmers when it´s cold, a disadvantage compared to other crops. Even though I find a weight of 4 a bit too much. (Unless you develop this further and change the weight of more food. But in that case, the capacity of storages and markets needs to be looked at, as well)

    Attachments:
    #5180
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Everything fine.. I don’t include something where I’m not convinced of or not think it can be worth trying.

    Seems, you already outsmarted the Iceland scenario. Maybe the birches are spreading a bit too fast and should keep wood more rare. Also, the turfhouses want to get a matching storage. Digging for clay was probably not the first thing a Viking had in mind after arriving there. =)

    About deer, this is the only starting condition without big reindeer herds. I doubt there was any deer at all but I did not want to make hunting completely useless. Survivors start at the main land with forests and big herds and will not have to suffer of these special conditions.

    I made changes at the houses and the wiki still refers to North6. Since log cabins now need some glass, I saw no reason why they should not have perfect warmth and gave them 100%. Turfhouses are warm too but without proper oven and chimney, firewood consumption will be not so efficient -> 80%. Red cottages still have the advantage of happiness + less risk on fire over log cabins due to the tiled roof. Frame houses have 60%.

    The production list of the sheep run get’s a fourth row then. Good hint. :)

    #5184

    irrelevant
    Member

    I also have an observation regarding charcoal production. I have a charcoal pile and a bloomery right next to each other. The bloomery seem continually to run out of charcoal, the charcoal burner seems unable to keep up.

    eta: seems like the burner has finally caught up. Must have been due to idling.

    #5185

    irrelevant
    Member

    I don’t understand how the mechanics of filling in a clay pit works. It seems to use the same amount of clay that was originally removed, which makes sense. However, I just had 12 clay placed into one, and now I cannot get anyone to work on it. The work button is greyed out, and I cannot assign the required worker. The pit is still there, a hole in the ground unusable for anything.

    How is this meant to work?

    #5186

    1
    Member

    <Since log cabins now need some glass, I saw no reason why they should not have perfect warmth and gave them 100%. >

    You could make poor alternative version of the log houses, look all same, except wooden hatch-door window, opposite glass windows and no chimney. Possibility to upgrade them to glass window and chimney version to get better ratings. Poor folks lived without glass, even when glass windows start to spread and become common.
    When they warm those no chimney houses, people have to go outside wait, or if they can withstand the smoke, lay down on the floor if don’t want go outside harsh winter to wait smoke clear, or if lucky they could make to neighbour house to wait.

    #5188

    irrelevant
    Member

    Hard to get much of anything done with only four workers (Survivor).

    Building a trader on the stream cause the river is too far away. Took forever to find a site that would fit. Don’t have much in stock to trade away though. Must be time to look for gold.

    Agree with Nilla, the tar pit is better than the charcoal burner.

    Wondering about happiness, is three stars the max possible with Bannies living in ghoatis? Both are in the circles of a well, an idol, and a sauna, but never more than three stars.

    I’ve gotten so used to Ironman that I am overstocked with food. I need to remember to resist that urge.

    Yes, pit houses are the way to go, I’ll never waste logs on a small shed again.

    Attachments:
    #5191

    irrelevant
    Member

    Got a pair of nomads, that was huge. Enough extra hands to do farming, went from zero hearts to four in short order. Starting to make small quantities of trade goods. Hide capes, iron tools, furs, traps, blueberries, all are good.

    Attachments:
    #5194
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Doesn’t sound funny in real life with those old log houses, not only because having to wait outside in winter but just think about the smoke inside. That’s why happiness detraction.^^ A primitive log house without glass is a nice idea, I will make a note.

    In Irrelevants village it’s not enough to get more than 3 stars. They need at least 4 aspects and the goahti removes one, so it’s only 2 and not all three homes are fully covered.

    Filling up the clay spot works by clicking the small button after it is empty, then a miner will carry 12 clay to the hole and has to do some work with a hoe to flatten the ground. When this is done, it can be released with the remove construction tool and something new can be built there. Also a new clay spot again and again. That’s why it has to be filled with same material. If you remove it before filling it up, it leaves a hole.

    The survivor start seems to work quite well. I did not know it’s possible to build a trading dock at a small stream. It actually needs two deep water tiles in a row across the flow direction but you somehow did it. :)

    #5196

    Nilla
    Member

    I think I would very much like a real Iceland scenario, where the trees are spare and grow much slower and there are no deer to hunt. As you say; I don´t think there was any kind of deer on Iceland originally. Maybe some changes/additions need to be made to make it playable; a simple workplace to process wool and sheepskin to clothing, enough deadwood alternative a possibility to dig for peat to heat houses, more stone and fewer logs as a building material for simple houses and stores.

    I did try to save logs but only at the beginning. Now I´m in year 22 and there’s as much forest as in any other game. So yes, slower-growing birches would increase the Iceland feeling. Much slower growth would force you to change your usual way of playing. As you know, I like such things. Now I can go on “as usual”. Not bad at all. There are still new things to explore.

    Irrelevant; I have just made many of my Bannis happy. Since they live in turf houses that also detracts happiness, I needed all happiness aspects, including the impressive longhouse Mead Hall until more than a few children became happy. Since we so far, only could buy 10 beehives, there´s no mead, only ale and roasted beef. But that seems to be good enough even when not everyone who lives inside all happiness circles is happy. Especially the original settlers, who had a hard life at the beginning are hard to please.

    Didn´t you write somewhere, Tom that the Thingstead attracts nomads if you have a trading route? I didn´t get any until I could buy a bible and build a chapel.

    First picture
    Isn´t the storehouse a beauty!

    Second picture
    You could see almost no effect on happiness until the Mead House produced some ale.

    #5197

    Nilla
    Member

    Forgot to add pictures, here they are.

    Attachments:
    #5200

    irrelevant
    Member

    My nomads came to the Thingstead, indeed it was after I built the TP, and before I built the Chapel.

    #5202
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    At the moment, the Thingstead attracts nomads but not far from home (seafarer). There you have to build a chapel or church which needs a trade good and limits nomads to mid and late game. So my description “until trade routes are established” is not accurate and can be missunderstood. There is a mechanic in game to require certain buildings for nomads but not in form of an “or” condition. So if I make the small dock to a requirement but a player builds a big dock it would not work.

    About reindeer in Iceland its written that it was imported around 1800 for farming and now lives as wild animal in some parts of the country. So if we want a more authentic and even harder Seafarer challenge, we can take it away. Black grouses are not native there too and I would just replace it by ptarmigans which is a simple texture work.

    Since we have introduced sheepskins for leather it would be playable without deer.

    #5216

    Nilla
    Member

    Maybe you could make two versions of seafarer; one easier, the way it is now and one harder, with less and slower growing trees and no deer. That way, it could suit more players and offer different kinds of gameplay. Maybe the birds could be trapped by the trapper as a by-product, I don´t think I want to build a hunter´s lodge for a few “chicken”.

    Let´s see what´s in my notes. The list is not so long this time.

    I have some questions about the Mead Hall; no mead yet but ale seem to work as at the other inns. But what about the roasted meat? It looks like it can be consumed at the Mead Hall instead of alcohol but opposit to the Ale House, some of it is transported out of the Mead Hall out to “the market”. Ale is also transported away very fast. You need to use “alcohol from outside” option a lot also for self produced ale. Is this intentional?

    I also wonder a bit about the proteins. It would be interesting to hear about your motives for the changes. In version 6 almost no cheap proteins were brought by the merchants. Now they bring all kind of meat; raw as well as smoked. All (except salted) to a value of 2. In the earlier versions, you could increase the value of meat by smoking it. I can´t say that I like the other version better than the other and I can´t tell if the changes make the game easier or harder. It depends on the conditions. If you are short on food; it´s very nice when a merchant brings some cheap fish. If you overproduce proteins, it´s very convenient to smoke some of it and barter it 1:1 for vegetables or bread.

    It´s a bit weird that merchants bring fresh meat and fish but OK, it´s mostly the local and the sami trader and they will probably not come from very far. The lower export price, combined with the changes of firewood (at least I think it used to give more than 3 firewood from each log) also make smoking meat and fish quite uninteresting. Charcoal is used for many things and I see no sense in spending valuable firewood on increasing the amount of food so little as the small smokehouse makes. I don´t know if it´s better at the larger site.

    First picture
    This one is for Irrelevant (and everyone else who is interested in happiness). I told you yesterday, that the initial settlers are hard to get happy, only a few of them were happy in the turf houses, even inside all happiness circles. Now I´ve built a few frame houses without happiness detraction and located initial settlers to them. Also here one of 4 is still unhappy. This is not new to me. I have noticed it in Nordic games before; it takes a very long time for Bannis to forget that the conditions were bad; that they were homeless, had no coats, were ill without a doctor, had a bad diet…….. some never forget.

    Second picture

    I couldn´t understand why the small DS workshop didn´t produce. I had enough iron bars but it uses iron fittings and logs, not as the text says; iron and logs and I was out of fittings. I don´t know if you could do something about it, Tom. If I remember it right DS has different receipts for wagon parts; you can use either iron or iron fittings but I don´t remember how this small blacksmith works.

    Third picture
    This is as warm as it gets this year. Luckily it´s not this cold so often but it might happen. And if you play “harsh” you must be prepared for this; no harvest at the fields and also no blueberries in the woods. I must confess that I was not really prepared here. I was only saved by the merchants.

    Fourth picture
    Could it be that animals in the “wrong” pasture produce less? I moved the cows temporarily to the second sheep run in the time I expand their normal pasture. The production of milk from up to 13 cows in the sheep run is far less than the production from my initial pasture for 8 cows. You can see the production menu from it some years ago cut in left. (Sorry for the ugly weather)

    Attachments:
    #5223

    Vrayna
    Member

    Hijacking this thread too! *waves* Hi!

    I’m really enjoying the NewNorth, though I might have killed a town or two.

    The one big thing that’s bothering me is the need for glass to build the herbalist.
    I’ve had a Trade post up since year 5. It’s now year 15, I still don’t have glass. I also haven”t gotten a merchant to bring seeds for grains. My people eat proteins, fruits and few veggies (shrooms and roots don’t seem to grow as well as berries) though that’s going to get better now that I’ve finally gotten turnip seeds.
    The result is that the adults’ health reached 0 heart in year 11, and I had a first death from old age in year 12, so before the first kid turned adult.
    So what I’m thinking is that maybe a place to consume herbs would help. Not a complete herbalist able to pick them up, but a place where people could use the herbs you make them gather with the herb removal tool?

    Other than that, I’ve been grumbling about needing to have a bible before nomads, but I thiiiink that’s 100% user error and not paying attention to what the Thingstead can do…

    #5224
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Welcome to the testness, Vrayna! =)

    Good point about the herbalist. I had this thought too when adding glass.. decided to make it consistent with the model now and to add a kind of healer’s hut later, but it did not happen yet. I thought of any small ancient building with some spiritual touch. Would like to have it already for the final version to fill this gap of gameplay.

    The thingstead is the thing to get early nomads, yep.

    That vendors take some roasted meat from the mead hall is not intentional but can happen because they gather protein. Alcohol should not be carried away. It cannot even stored in a market actually. A first glance into source files doesnot explain it. Will put it in bug list because it should be avoidable.

    Local merchants and Sami Traders bring now also fresh fish and venison. I thought it’s reasonable and makes their list a bit more variable. It should not be too much, maybe to limit the quantity of fresh stuff a bit more.

    While calculating production chains, I found that smoking was very overpowered in North6 because it has no expensive input material like salt. So the higher price was not really reasonable and made salting almost useless. Balancing was tricky because I did not want to nerf food output, so removing the price increase was the way. Smoking is still a great option to preserve meat and fish if you don’t have accees to salt. Also, the smokehouse is faster than the small shed.

    The wrong text in wagon part production I can fix. And animals actually cannot work different in different types of pastures. At least I have no clue how this can happen. :)

    #5230

    Vrayna
    Member

    Speaking of pastures: The production window has only 3 lines, so for my sheep run I get the yearly production info for wool, animal fat and sheep skin, but can’t see how much meat I am getting.
    (I have the feeling the wayfarer start on a lake map is going to go very wrong very fast. So few trees, so little wild food. Protein overdose inc! :o )

    #5231
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Yes, the 4. line in sheep run production is already a bug to be banished.. I collect points there in a test log since you all want to sit and talk in one thread.^^

    That Iceland scenario is special, on a lake map even more because of less trees as you say. That’s the idea to have to deal with wood as a rare resource in opposite to the mainland starts full of forests. Of course it has to be playable and also enjoyable. To keep a good diet should work with the barley and turnip seeds. Plus the ancient herbalist you suggested. I have clicked the increase priority button on this item and I hope it helps!

    #5233

    Nilla
    Member

    If you know me and my opinion of herbalists, you might understand that I haven´t noticed that the herbalist need glass to be built. I seldom build any but since the game offers herbs from the start and the possibility to regain hearts by taking a herb and visit a herbalist, I too find that there ought to be a healing possibility early in the game, where it´s not unusual that you have problems to support your population with all food categories. Good ideas! But I have noticed that the hunter also need glass to be built and that the forester lodge has become very expensive to build (at least I can´t remember that it needed that many logs before). Don´t get me wrong, I don´t disapprove. It has a point that you can´t build a small, cheap hunter and support the whole settlement with meat in an early game or that you need to make larger investments in logs to get a lot of logs. But a forester´s log needing as many logs as the big mead longhouse? Hmm.

    Sorry Tom, I didn´t express myself well; there´s no ale at a marketplace. It lands in some barn. And I´m not sure that it´s the vendors that take the goods away. My impression is that the Mead House somehow can´t store as much roasted meat or alcohol as the Ale House. I´m not sure that you need to change anything, they may very well work a bit different. It´s not such a big problem to use the “alcohol from outside” option, even if you produced it at the same place last year. That roasted meat is transported out of the Mead Hall might be good or bad, depending on the circumstances: If you´re a bit short on food the Ale House may hold 1000 roasted meat or more, that´s unaccessable for people to eat. I´ve had to “fake demolish” Ale Houses to feed my people with roasted meat. But if roasted meat once is transported away from the Mead Hall, I haven´t seen that it can be transported back and you need to produce much more roasted meat than you need for happiness. That´s not so good if you have more proteins than you need but are a bit short on firewood. (a very common scenario on “harsh”).

    One more question on the mead House; did you always used firewood to produce ale and mead? Does it really make sense?

    I can see your point with the smoked meat. But salting wasn´t useless. I might have overused the smoking alternative in some games but only quite early in games as you can produce more firewood than you need for heating and other processes. There was always a point where I switched to salting (or didn´t process the meat at all because I had more trading goods than I needed). Don´t get me wrong, I don´t mind the changed trade value of smoked meat, there are enough other trading goods. I´m just concerned that smoking meat generally will not be an option in the North 7. If I don´t remember it wrong; you have reduced the output from the woodcutter from 4 to 3 firewood from each log and you have reduced the output of charcoal from each firewood and there are more sites that use firewood or charcoal than there was in earlier versions. If I haven´t overseen something, this will make firewood rarer. This game is with “harsh” climate, where you always have some trouble to get enough firewood but my impression is that it´s worse than usual. I can´t simply afford to use the precious firewood for such a small increase in food.

    You have two types of stone roads. My stockpiles were pretty full of small stones so I built some ordinary stone roads. My guess is that the “paved roads uses stones from the stonemason, that needs a quarry to work. How much faster are these roads?

    Some more questions to the pictures:

    First picture
    This is, of course, a consequence of the weight of turnips; it takes much longer to harvest a field of turnips than a field with “normal” crops. The farmers need to walk to the barn very often. This is a decent year; the harvest of barley is done but not even the half turnip field. I´ve relocated some barley farmer to help with the turnips, two farmers will not be able to harvest a field of 80-90 tiles.

    You can also see that there are no workers at many sites. Almost everyone is out in the woods picking blueberries and if there´s time enough, herbs for export.

    Second picture
    I´m a bit confused about the limits and symbols. I think, the production of iron bars has stopped because I´ve reached the limit of “metals”. But the menu of the blacksmith shows other limits. Maybe there´s only room for 3 different windows but iron bars is the most common product, so it would be nice to have it at the menu. There´s also the deer hide symbol at something called “minerals and ores”. You might want to take a look at this. By the way, I like the menus with the limits and the texts like; “Controls the limit of wadmal and other textiles”. The tannery also has a button “Controls the production of potash and other materials”. Did you have plans to make potash at the tannery and changed it?

    Third picture
    A few days ago I asked if it´s worth to farm flax at harsh. You didn´t answer, Tom. Maybe you didn´t see it or though; “let her find out for herself”. So I bought the seeds. I haven´t really tried it yet. The one year I grew it was really miserable and gave nothing but there were also almost no turnips and barley so I will try it a few more years.

    You can also see the content at my trading port (there are also some pottery and some cheese). I sell a surplus of various goods. Long term I want to support the settlement with imported food. It is tedious and uncertain to farm and gather wild food on “harsh” but I don´t really know yet, what export goods are the best. It will probably stay a mixture of various things for a long time. The merchants of the small port also don´t bring as much food as would have been necessary with import only of vegetables, grain and fruit.

    Attachments:
    #5240

    Nilla
    Member

    I wanted to say something more to the last picture. Do you think that the Hanseatic merchant really would have brought potatoes and corn seeds? ;)

    #5241

    Vrayna
    Member

    I’d add something in your list of “things to maybe add”: a way to make a bridge / ford for small streams using only stones. I’ve had a couple of Seafarer/Lake starts with only 1 to 3 trees in reach of the starting point, so not enough to cross a small stream to reach the mainland or a bigger island and hope to survive*.

    *survive until either starving or freezing that is :3

    #5242

    Vrayna
    Member

    Animal fat seems to be taken into houses and eaten, is that intended?

    #5243
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Yeah, these Hanse guys are busy and already rule a global trading network with access to fancy New World crops.^^ I had this idea to render the tweak mod unnecessary and to bring potatoes into the game naturally at some point. Actually I need a modern trading dock that makes sure we are already somewhere in early industrial times. So maybe to skip the idea for now.

    Such a stone ford to cross small streams sounds interesting. It will look nice in water and made of stone it can be a useful addition to the roads toolbar. With boardwalks you can also find a way at shallow parts but not really comfortable.

    Animal Fat is intended to be edible so far. I had to make a decision between this and as inedible raw material saved for tallow but piled up useless until mining and tunneling starts in mid game. How would you prefer this stuff to be?

    Btw, I added a mentions email notification feature. You can now use @… to call someone as we know it from other boards.

    Will come back to the other questions later. I never think “let her find out self” =)

    #5244

    Vrayna
    Member

    About the firewood/charcoal thing: I’m playing on “only” Fair climate, so not the harshest, and I have to say that with a Seafarer start I run out of firewood every winter and can’t make more than a few batches of charcoal.

    I basically can never have enough charcoal to use at the bloomery + the 2 steps at the blacksmith to make tools or the fittings needed for the Trade Post, unless I close down 2 of my 3 houses every winter to cut down on firewood use.

    #5246
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Interesting how different it can turn out with this start.. One map where birches grow like weed now and one struggling with wood to get at least some homes warm. I think it’s quite lucky or unlucky with the randomly scattered birch woods and there is probably some tipping point from where enough trees can be saved to overgrow large areas or where it leads into problems and where you have to take everything that re-seeds just to survive. Trading for wood can then probably turn it, if you get it to build in time. I think it should be still slowed down how birches spread over the map but would be nice to get it more stable somehow. Maybe by improving firewood production and consumption.

    One thing I want to do is reducing firewood consumption for smoking meat and fish. It is now and was in version 6 one firewood to get 6 – 8 food, that’s really much fuel. I will increase the amount of meat smoked with 1 firewood.

    #5247

    Vrayna
    Member

    At the moment I really think it’s the firewood to charcoal that might need a tiny bit of tuning. I haven’t really reached the point where I feel like I can spare any wood for food-stuff. Still trying to make enough charcoal to craft the few iron fittings, and then some iron tools.
    I think that on my map I’ve reached the point where trees are starting to spread nicely though, so firewood should soon be a bit easier to get and I’ll be able to let a worker on charcoal duty for a couple of seasons.

    I suspect I might have also been incredibly “lucky” with an insane amount of stones and bog iron in the areas where trees grew. I’m pretty sure that it also limited the amount of firewood (and wild food) that could possibly spawn. Basically I had the weird luck of very few trees and tons of stuff under them.

    I had forgotten how fun it is to have to worry about details in Banished again :D

    #5250
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    So it’s really an indestructible weed, these birches.. =)

    Just want to keep up with this thread and answer open questions:

    About building materials, basically they are now measured along model surfaces, so there is not much to estimate for me anymore which is nice. The Forester’s Lodge is a bit of an exception. While the actual lodge has measured materials, the additional home has not, but more wood to not force people to abuse it for extrem cheap housing. This can be cleared by taking it away from the lodge if not I remove this fumbling extension at all.

    In the Mead Hall it’s still unclear why they carry out booze. But what I can do anyway is adding the “empty storage function” as I did with some buildings. It can be useful to manage also Alehouse and Tavern.

    Simple stone road and paved road have the same effect. The only difference is that a paved road can be built faster with ashlar. These building stones don’t need a quarry as you supposed. A stonemason can make them. Since the game only knows Normal, Fast and Faster speed, we don’t have many options and I did not want to set dirt roads to normal speed because people would not really walk there anymore. So this new stone road is actually more a visual variant.

    Potash I had in the tannery as a supply but then found it somehow overdone, especially for early game and removed it. The limit I will remove too if I don’t get complain about removing the material.^^

    And finally Flax. It has a similar setting as Rye and grows quite well in Northern climate with limitations in harsh of course.

    As you can see, I was a bit diligent in the Wiki adding new content. Links to buildings and resources are also in Beta download page. Descriptions still need polishing but the values should be already useful for testing.

    #5251

    sokol
    Member

    With birches as lucky. On some maps, there may be one grove of 10 birches nearby. Or near 2-3 groves of fifty trees. Hence the excess or lack of wood.

    #5252

    Nilla
    Member

    Our games were not much different at the beginning, Vrayna. It was a real struggle to get enough logs, firewood and charcoal. I had to send all Bannis out in every accessible small birch forest to pick deadwood to heat their houses. I was very careful about cutting trees. The woodcutter was only allowed to work when I needed charcoal and I only produced the few I needed to make a few tools. That way the birch forests got large and dense after 15-20 years. But still; I have constantly a lack of logs, firewood and charcoal or this is maybe wrong expressed; I have enough but only because I´m still extremely careful, how I use them. You said Vrayna, that you want to run charcoal production a year or two. I´m in year 46 and so far, I couldn´t run the pit one whole year in a row. And I still need to send more or less everyone out in the close forests to pick every available deadwood and I can´t let fuel demanding sites like blacksmiths, pottery, meat smoker and glassmaker work as much as I want to.

    I find this rationing of wood and wood products is OK (and wanted) at an Iceland scenario. It´s a different way to play and think, that I do enjoy. I wouldn´t even mind if it was even a bit worse if you play on harsh but the conditions I have now, after the forests have grown to normal size are like a “normal Nordic game” and I don´t find that lack of logs and fuels should be the limiting factor in such a game.

    I don´t find that logs, firewood and charcoal was overpowered in North 6. There´s a merchant I think it´s called Timber Trader who comes to the big port with desirable daler, who only pays the “good price” for wood products. I always tried to sell various goods but could never sell anything to this merchant, I never had a surplus. The changes in North 7: 3 firewood from each log instead of 4 and 16 firewood for 12 charcoal instead of 1:1 make that instead of 4 charcoal from each log you only get 2,25. So, you almost need the double amount of logs to make charcoal and there are more, new products that you among others need for construction that use either firewood or charcoal (pottery, potash, iron fittings). So here you will rather need more charcoal than you did in a North 6 game.

    I think some rebalancing in firewood-charcoal production is necessary for normal scenarios. With a slower growth of the trees at “seafarer”, we can still have this challenge when we want to.

    Since I´m constantly short on fuels, I wanted to find out how much firewood the different kind of houses really need. I held the menus of 2 turf houses and 2 frame houses open over one year. The turf houses needed 30 and 31 firewood, the frame houses 40 and 41. This year had an unusually warm summer so I held the menu of a turf house that for some reason had hoarded 126 (!) firewood open (no wonder that the stores of firewood sometimes drops fast). Over two quite normal years, it needed 66 firewood. Then I built one log cabin and compared it to the turf house. They both use the same amount of firewood. I tested twice because I thought I wrote the wrong number or mixed something on my not very tidy notes but one year they both used 32 logs, next year the log house 32 and the turf house 33. A bug?

    Anyway; to help the situation I´ve built a mine and mine for coal. I will not need to mine for iron ore for a long time, because like on Vrayna´s map, there are a lot of bog iron (and stones) on the map.

    First picture
    To help the log situation long term, I built a forester´s hut. They plant firs! It´s not the first time we humans have changed the ecosystem.

    You can also see my “normal way” of getting logs; a woodcutter in woodcutter cabin, combined with a firewood chopper. Since I don´t want to “over cut” trees, I cut for a while and when the log pile is full, I let the cutter switch to make firewood. There are 3 such combos together with a couple of village woodchoppers.

    Second picture
    Beautiful buildings! The merchants seem to arrive a bit more often to this port than to the small ones. I had hoped that also other merchants would dare the long journey to this nice port but so far it´s the same. But there is room for an export port right next to this one. We will see who arrives there eventually.

    Third picture
    I don´t know what went wrong by removing this small clay pit. I had 2 pits and the first was removed without problems. I used the fill option, a miner worked and was unemployed but here for some reason 2 clay is left. If I try to demolish, it looks like no one can demolish it as long as there’s clay left and even with priority tool no one carries the clay away. Possible bug?

    Attachments:
    #5257

    Nilla
    Member

    Just want to report that it wasn´t a bug at that claypit after all. It took a very long time but after a year or two, someone must have got that spare clay away and now the pit is gone. :) sorry for “troubling” about it.

    #5260

    Nilla
    Member

    I played a little more yesterday evening, not more than about 5 years. Strange how things can change over such a short time. My log/fuel issues are gone! I can build what I want, there´s always enough firewood, I can run my energy consuming sites, I´ve even built a second tar/charcoal kiln. What has happened? I think it´s a combination of 3 things:
    I´ve started a coal mine, not more than 350-400 coal each year is added but it helps.
    The foresters that have worked for quite a few years finally cut a lot of logs. The first years they mostly cleared the ground from stones and ore.
    I´ve built a 4. woodcutter/chopper combo. This one has full 5 stars and works far more efficient that his colleges who live out in the woods, far away from all happiness maker. I estimate that he produces at least 30 % more than the other.

    I will now try to transfer this village to be supported by trade. It will be a long way to go. But it looks possible.

    I have just one more question for now; how does eduction influence the production? Are there any major changes? I guess it will now pay off to order some bricks and roof tiles and build a school. Especially when I want to expand my “industries”.

    Picture
    I can´t believe this. It´s March and we still have a lot of firewood!

    Now, not everything is going perfectly smooth. There´s a drop in health. There are too many houses for the small Wagon Vendor, even with 3 vendors working. I regret I didn´t leave space for a big market, but if I want one, I would have to move pastures and demolish some other things as well to get it on a good spot, so I will add another Wagon vendor and hope for the best instead. Here you really can see that you can have all kind of food and everyone can live close to a market but still have health issues if the distribution doesn´t work as you planned.

    Attachments:
    #5262
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Yeah, forestry and coal mining are great against wood shortage.

    No major changes at education and definitely worth to teach your clueless bannies. =)

    #5263

    Nilla
    Member

    This is the craziest bug I´ve ever had!
    Since I wanted to build a school, I ordered bricks and roof tiles. When I got them, I decided I might as well try to replace the Wagon Vendor, with a couple of Lanthandel.

    When I click on the small trading dock (or many of the other buildings); the menu of the Lanthandel pops up and I can´t open the menu of (almost) any other building. The glassmaker or the large trading port seem to ban the curse and everything works normally for a little while after I´ve clicked on one of these buildings. Then I click on the small port, a barn, a production building or a house and the Lanthandel menu is shown again, the “curse” is there until I click at the glassmaker. Weird!

    I will now demolish the cursed building and see what happens. If it´s only this one on that location or if the other one is weird as well.

    I demolished it, rebuilt it 1 tile away; the same. There are some weird lines when I click on it. I don´t know what they mean.

    Attachments:
    #5266

    Nilla
    Member

    I´m afraid, the second Lanthandel shows the same weird things.

    #5267
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    I really renamed it to “Landhandel”? Did I drink some Swedish schnapps that evening or how could it happen. And wrong written in addition.. lol

    Good that you found this bug. I have fixed it right now for the final version. It’s a wrong scaled outline mesh (used for picking and highlighting) that stands huge over your map if activated and then blocks clicking other buildings. You can avoid this bug in your game using only the two other variants of the shop. The one with reddish sign on roof has the wrong mesh.

    #5268

    Vrayna
    Member

    Reddish sign, that’s the one with tables of goods on each side of the door, isn’t it?
    *rushes to cancel the building and pick another model*

    #5269
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    The one with two tables has a greenish sign on roof and a nice working yellow outline. The buggy one has it’s outline somewhere in outer space.^^

    #5270

    Nilla
    Member

    No, no Tom, you didn´t drink enough Swedish schnapps to hide your German accent. ;) But nothing can stop me from using the proper Swedish name.

    I´m glad you found the bug. It was too weird for my taste. Are you sure, that it´s only one of the stores (!) that´s bugged? I have demolished them but when I look at my screenshots, I have 2 different kinds of them; the one with the fruit left and the one with fruit on both sides. As far as I noticed; all of them were bugged.

    #5272
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Loading the Beta from 8. November it’s the one with reddish sign and table to the left from your view. Both other variants work.

    #5273

    Nilla
    Member

    Are you really sure? I have another screenshot here from the store, where I first discovered the bug. It´s the one with tables on both sides. Same as the second, that also bugged. On the winter picture in the earlier thread, I´ve rebuilt the first store, 1 tile away from the first. That´s the one with the table left.

    Attachments:
    #5275

    Vrayna
    Member

    If you have both built, is it not because when clicking on the one with the 2 tables, you’re also selecting the buggy one because of its insane footprint?

    #5276

    Nilla
    Member

    As you might have noticed, so far I´ve said almost nothing about “my speciality”; production numbers and balancing. That´s partly because I haven´t run many of the sites continuously long enough to get reliable numbers but also because I´m very pleased with the balancing, generally. As usual, Tom; you´ve made a great job.

    This game is on “harsh”. I´ve just built a school, so everyone is still uneducated. I´ve waited this long on purpose, just to get a feeling of how the game works with only uneducated workers. It´s probably wise to build a school much earlier. So, the conditions can´t be much worse. It´s possible to survive and expand the settlement but it is a struggle. I still need to micromanage. I can´t survive without the unreliable farming and without sending, maybe not everyone anymore, but a lot of people out in the woods to pick blueberries and deadwood. I would very much like to do without this but so far, I can´t. I find this is perfect balancing! If I could have played this game without struggle, it will be too easy when the population gets educated or if you play on “mild”.

    It´s a small profit to produce a surplus of goods to sell, but I can´t produce so much that I can support the settlement. The export sites make an annual profit between 600 and 1500 trade units each year. Reasonable for an uneducated worker. It´s more profitable to make wadmal than wool tunics. If I know your way of balancing, Tom, I´m sure this will change with educated workers. But it´s still a small annual profit to make the clothes and some merchants pay the higher price for them and not for wadmal, so I sell both.

    I might have some suggestions for the ports and merchants.

    The small ports work pretty much as they used to in North 6, even if the merchants bring a bit different stuff. I complained at the beginning that they didn´t bring any gold or silver, but they do. Maybe not so often as they used to but when they have some, it´s quite a lot. So I´m still mostly able to pay the Hanseatic merchant in gold. I also complained that they bring too little food. This changed as the settlement passed 100 inhabitants, so if I order beans, now I can never buy it all.

    I´ve mentioned it before; the only thing, I might want to see changed is the trade with fresh meat and fish. If we can´t limit this to the winter when it´s frozen, I would prefer, no trade with fresh meat and fish. This could also give smoking higher importance. No merchant wants fresh meat but some pay 2 if it´s smoked. It´s still a considerable loss in food amount to trade away smoked meat but you might still want to if you have a lot of meat and want a balanced diet.

    The same merchants seem to arrive to the big port as the small. It´s quite logical but it would have been a nice surprise to see at least one new merchant here, that doesn´t bother to stop at the small ports, maybe a special salt merchant. Salt was maybe the most important import good and I find too few merchants bring some.

    How do you find the idea, that no merchant bring seeds and animals to the big port? The many seeds are rather annoying. At the time as you can afford to build one, you must have bought all you need and besides, I see no reason to demolish the small ports, just because you can build a large port. My idea later in the game is to use the big port for barter trade and the small ports for import, using daler. But I´m far from there, yet and can´t say if it works.

    I liked the old export merchants better. It was clear what goods they wanted. Here their title says nothing, I need to stop the game and look, what this merchant want to pay good for. My suggestion is 4-5 different merchants for different types of goods with clear titles; Maybe

    foodstuff
    metal products
    textiles and clothes
    building materials, like glass, brick, pottery, tar
    and maybe one more for raw material and some special goods like herbs and alcohol

    #5277
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    That’s nice it turns out this way in your game! I think the harder conditions should be at this point where it’s doable but demanding even if you know what to do. I don’t want Ironman to be standard for experienced players. That should be something on top. And there are still many options to make it easier for relaxed playing.

    What I want to further develop is accessibility of things that moved to mid game because of their models not matching the new Viking style early game. Like the ancient herbalist from Vrayna or the workshop and maybe some others.

    About merchants I had this thought with additional trade routes for new items but people could run into problems if they don’t know and wait for a material that is brought only to the other type of dock. Would be frustrating. So I only changed the ratio of merchants. To the small dock more local merchants and from other routes only 1 guy while at the big dock are more boats from far away. That means foodstuff, livestock, seeds and basic materials more likely in early game and advanced materials more likely a bit later.

    The merchants arriving at the export dock are from these trade routes as well and demanding goods that fit in their profile. Sami traders buy food and tools because it’s needed there or English traders wanting wood, charcoal and tar for industrial use and shipbuilding etc.. They pay a good prize for many things while a specialized timber merchant would only pay well for wood. The intended use of this big export warehouse was to put in all stuff you want to sell and to hit auto trade knowing that they will pay well for most of it. Those merchants coming to buy fur or wood I still have in mind but for small specialized docks. At least that’s the idea behind this setup.

    #5278

    irrelevant
    Member

    Just noticed something interesting about the trapper cabin. For several years I had only a single trapper working and was getting 8-20 furs/year. I finally got enough workers to assign a second trapper, and production jumped to 70 furs the first year I did this. What could possibly account for this disproportionate increase? Do trappers behave like gatherers, leave their production on the ground for laborers to collect? I can’t stop the micro for long enough to follow them around.

    Also noticed that fur production does not appear in any of the categories of the production tab of the Thingstead. Design or accident?

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    #5282

    irrelevant
    Member

    Just had two nomads arrive at the Thingstead. I assigned them jobs and built a goahti for them. Then I discovered that they arrived on the far side of the unbridged river, and so they starved to death. In all towns I have played up to now, when nomads arrived, they actually did arrive in the town, and were standing at the town hall (or whatever building brings them). If they could not pathfind their way to the town hall, they never were announced as having arrived. Is this an accident? Can it be remedied?

    Anvils are awesome trade goods, nominal TV 100.

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    #5284

    Smurph
    Member

    I’ve had similar experiences with Nomads.

    On my small map sometimes the Nomads spawn in a location that cannot reach the Thingstead but I still get the “Accept Nomad” prompt. In one corner of the map, it is impossible for me to connect to those nomads via bridge or tunnel. They always starve to death.

    In a second direction Nomads spawned, prompted the acceptance at the Thingstead, and could not reach my town. Fortunately, I was able to build a bridge and connect them to town before they starved to death.

    #5285
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    Morning.. Weekend and time to create something. :)

    At the Thingstead you found a bug and I fixed it for the final version. Nomads will spawn properly. Thank you for this find.

    I’m not so happy with the output of furs. It’s a decent profit but doesn’t feel so with around 20 to 50 furs per year. Since trappers need so much untouched forest area it can be more, also with the nice price of 40. Will look how to keep fur coats in balance with a higher output of trapping.

    Another small bug is in the trappers cabin showing the textile limit but Furs are now counted as material above textiles in your production overview. Together with hides. This way, weaving doesn’t stop when hunters pile hides and furs. Basically, trapping works like gathering, yes. But usually they pick it up by themselves.

    Test Log is updated.

    #5294

    Nilla
    Member

    Well, I don´t dare to think about “Ironmen” on Iceland. But I like the idea, that you can try it if you want to really “suffer”.

    I don´t find that the traders at the big port bring fewer seeds and animals, in the contrary, it looks like more. As I said, quite annoying an unnecessary mid-late game.

    I don´t see how you can auto trade at the export port unless you can afford to sell some goods for the low price, what I don´t think you can under these conditions. But I plan to auto trade food for daler at the small port, once I got the export running well enough. That will make the trade much easier.

    I guess I can learn what the different merchants want to buy for daler but it used to be easier. The good thing is that there´s no merchant, that you can make no business with, like the old Timber merchant. They all want to buy something I like to export. By the way, there is one that has only a name and no title. I will pay attention and tell what he wants to buy and I also have the impression that different local merchants want different things. I´m not sure and will look at it more carefully…….

    ………if this settlement survives…….

    I don´t want to expand farming and my food stores are slowly shrinking. The log-fuel problems have reappeared, simply because I try to increase fuel demanding export goods production and I was careless/stupid enough not to expand the pastures as much as would have been wise.

    Picture
    Can I demolish the other chapels when this beauty is built? I somehow miss the crosses you can see everywhere on the real Norwegian starvkyrkor. Because in this village we are good Christians except at childbirth and distress at sea. (That´s a quote but I don´t remember from where, probably some literature)

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    #5299

    Nilla
    Member

    The settlement still lives. It´s still a struggle. I have reluctantly built a few more fields and I´m about to expand the number of pastures. With a second forester, I also hope that we can increase the charcoal production and be able to increase the production of fuel-consuming export goods. Students have started to graduate. It´s too early to see an overall effect yet. I´m trying to locate the educated workers to “important” sites but they are still few and are not easy to force to be glassmaker instead of traders at the close trading port.

    My major issue at the moment are the markets. They don´t work as I want to (and as they use to at a vanilla game). First I used the Wagon Vendors. They worked very well at the beginning but as the settlement grew, it was getting harder to keep them filled, even with 2-3 vendors. This is something I´ve seen in other games, too. They are simply too small to support a lot of houses. Since the Lanthandel “bugged”, I built first one and now two big markets. But they can´t be filled. Look at the pictures; there isn´t much food at the market. I want to fill it with as much food as I have in the barns so I assigned 6 vendors. Normally it doesn´t take long and the market will be well filled. But these guys refuse to work. At the second picture, at least 2 of them do but at the first; none! I can´t understand what´s wrong. Any hints?

    Also; I have never seen any firewood at one of the markets. I don´t know if this is a bug or if it´s too heavy for my reluctant vendors to carry. And maybe some of the materials like barrows, potash, pottery, rope, tallow should be removed. Maybe space for such things is reserved at the markets and make it impossible to fill it with food and firewood. Textiles and salt may have a point to store there, to be able to locate tailors and salt consuming sites close to the market.

    The merchant Conniel has no title but wants to buy ironware, glass and pottery.

    Irrelevant; I have noticed, too that anvils have a good profit but I don´t sell any iron products at all. (I put some spare iron fittings in some of the ports just to see which merchants pay good for them but I haven´t sold any). The reason is that I always was short on logs and fuels. So I made a small calculation of which goods made a good profit/used log. And since iron products use charcoal at each step, thay cost more logs to produce than pottery and glass.

    If my calculations are right; you get a profit for one used log:
    iron tool 29
    iron fitting 35
    anvil 39
    pottery 97
    glass 77

    First picture
    Vendors prefer collecting resources than to fill their market.

    Second picture
    Now at least two of them are working but the market is quite empty, even if there are a lot of meat and fish in the barns. I held the menus open for quite some time and never saw more than two of them working at the same time, often it was only one or none.

    Third picture
    They don´t even empty the mead house anymore, what they did at the beginning of the game. Now, I don’t complain about this, it´s just a notice. If the vendors were too diligent at the beginning, now it has changed to the opposite.

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    #5305
    Tom Sawyer
    Tom Sawyer
    Member

    This suspicious merchant came from the volga trade route. Now he as proper papers.

    At the big port I want to reduce seeds a bit if annoying. In general I have to be carefully because it is not clear if a player builds small docks first or only a big one waiting for seeds.

    The temple covers the whole map with passive spirit and is active for 1000 people. So yes you can remove chapels if you don’t want the nomads from there anymore. But I don’t know what’s worse if you demolish those things, punishment of God or the wrath of the old ones.^^

    I will look at the market, it sounds as there is something wrong. Materials I can take out I think. That would effect hides, furs, tallow etc. Things I would expect on a medieval market but if bad for gameplay then it should be removed.

    #5315

    Nilla
    Member

    Since you think that there will be a new version this week, Tom, I went on with this town. We live but it´s still a struggle. Perfect, as it should be! I have looked at some more things; it looks like glassware is cheaper and much more profitable to produce for export than glass panes. What´s the reason? At the moment, I don´t bother to look at production numbers. With a partly educated population, it´s tedious. In other more planned games, I use to start a new village with educated couples a bit away from the old town but since I have no intention to play this game so much longer, I haven´t in this town. So I take it as it comes.

    Sometimes it brings surprises: I had a lot of boulders blocking my stockpiles, so I decided to build a stonemason. First I just cut them to small, more useful stones. Then I saw that he can also produce millstones. We need to buy a lot of food so another thing to export that doesn´t cost any logs is great. I saw, 1 boulder gives 1 millstone. Sounds reasonable. The production was slow at the beginning but after a while, it increased in a strange way and I saw that now 2 millstones were made from each boulder. It looks like one of my younger cleverer workers saw how inefficient the older generation handled the stones and decided to do it better himself. By the way; the menu says that “stones” are used to make millstones. It would be better if it says “boulders”.

    First picture
    I´ve played with things I usually never use in a Nordic game; here cray fishing. The idea that a gatherer can empty the catch cages is clever. Now, it´s not much use to have a gatherer picking wild food on “harsh” so I concentrate on cray fishing and have located 4 spots in it the area. When they are empty the gatherer picks his deadwood until I have time/remember to put out new spots. Also good. On this picture, the output is very consistent but I have seen everything between 15 and 90. I don´t know if it pays off but it´s something different.

    Second picture
    This one is a little extreme, but principally not unusual. There are much more seeds and animals than advanced goods delivered to the big port. I´m glad you want to change this, Tom.

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